Right type of audio cable to use. at DVinfo.net

Scott Holt · August 26th, 2017, 12:17 PM

I am going to use the audio from our radio guy to go along with our stream feed. He has only main output L & R left to use on his mixer which is a 1/4" phone plug. I am then need to use some type of adapter to convert it to an XLR connection which is what I have plugged into my mixer. I have had several people give me several different things on what I should do to make it work. I was actually looking for a dual phone jack to XLR adapter cable and did find one but it was way too expensive for no more than what we are doing. I was actually looking at using something like this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop to then add to this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WZQH0M8...WA1PPAW13&th=1 which will then run into a 35' XLR cable hooked up to my mixer.
Someone suggested this may be better for a combination This https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop into this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop which will also then run into a 35' XLR cable hooked up to my mixer.
Someone also suggested running 2 separate cables to my mixer by using something like this but 2 of them. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WZQH0M8...=1JK1WA1PPAW13
The problem with the last one is that it is a run of 40'. I would need 2 40' runs.
So let me run through my scenario of what I am going to do again. Go from main out phone jack L & R and somehow get it to my mixer 40' away and into an XLR input. Any ideas? Thanks.

Rick Reineke · August 26th, 2017, 01:51 PM

Are the outputs from the "radio guy" balanced? Typical (pro) line outputs are 1/4" TRS (three terminal plug). Most line inputs are 1/4" TRS as well, so you could get a pair of 50' cables with 1/4" TRS plug on each end. If the feed is not stereo (spoken word for instance) you would only need one cable. If you can get the Make/Model number of the mixers involved, we could tell you for sure what's needed.

Edward Carlson · August 26th, 2017, 02:49 PM

I think lots of confusion in these types of scenarios come from 1/8" stereo connectors and 1/4" TRS jacks. A 1/4" TRS jack, even though it looks like a larger version of the 1/8" stereo jack, is not stereo!

XLR carries a balanced signal. That is, there is a positive, negative, and a ground. A stereo 1/8" cable carries two positives (one for left and one for right,) and a negative. We call this unbalanced.

The Hosa STP-202 cable you linked is an insert cable. On certain consoles, you can use one of these cables to send audio to an effects processor, then back into the console. You insert the effects back into your mix with only one cable. The audio on all the plugs is unbalanced, but the TRS jack has audio flowing both directions. This is not what you need.

If you absolutely have to run the audio stereo, then you need two TRS to XLR cables, like the LyxPro cable you linked. If the audio is only being run mono, then there's no reason for you to record it in stereo, so only one of those cables would be needed.

Rick Reineke · August 26th, 2017, 04:06 PM

On many consoles these days, the XLR is microphone level only, If there's no mic/line switch, the line input is usually directly under it or in close proximity to the XLR, like in this Allen&Heath input channel below.
If the mic input is fed line level, it will likely distort badly.

Don Palomaki · August 27th, 2017, 01:12 PM

It may not be simple.

Three conductor (TRS - tip, ring sleeve) 1/4" phone can be stereo, as in the head phone jacks on some gear, an effects I/O as described above, it can be balanced as in the typical input/output of pro gear, and can be low or high impedance, and mic, consumer line, or pro line level. The only way to tell is to know what the gear at both ends is, which input/output connections are being used, and any related wswitch settings.

If connecting you mixer to someone else's output at possibly line levels, you may want to have a "direct box" to provide electrical/ground loop isolation.

Its not brain surgery, just potentially complicated due to the number of possible options.

Graham Bernard · August 28th, 2017, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

It may not be simple. .... Its not brain surgery, just potentially complicated due to the number of possible options.

Nicely described Don. And that is why I keep one of these in my audio box-o-tricks:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachme...1&d=1503900988

Also good for testing my "soldering". I've also had to re-solder, rearrange a ready-to-go pro XLR cableing too.

Scott Holt · August 28th, 2017, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Reineke

Are the outputs from the "radio guy" balanced? Typical (pro) line outputs are 1/4" TRS (three terminal plug). Most line inputs are 1/4" TRS as well, so you could get a pair of 50' cables with 1/4" TRS plug on each end. If the feed is not stereo (spoken word for instance) you would only need one cable. If you can get the Make/Model number of the mixers involved, we could tell you for sure what's needed.

He sent me the model this morning. It is Behringer XENYX Q1202

Rick Reineke · August 28th, 2017, 11:21 AM

The Behringer XENYX Q1202 Mains, FX Send and Control Room outputs are balanced via 1/4 inch TRS jacks (+4dB nominal).

The Control Room output is the same as the mains but would be subject to Solo interruption, and the Headphone/CTRL Room level control would affect the output level feed. So I would stay away from that if the 'radio guy' is using headphones.

Another good output option is using the FX send outputs if it's not being used already. Just set the channel(s) FX send and master FX send to unity (12:00 o'clock).

The 2-track output has the same mix as the mains, but it's unbalanced, via RCA (phono) jacks, which could be used for a short cable run (typically recommended to be under 10 ft).

A PDF of the manual is here.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-t5Ckr_ZIbrRmQ

Scott Holt · August 28th, 2017, 11:34 AM

I think I will be able to hook up to the main which seems like the best option from what you say. Thanks so much for the advice. I appreciate greatly.

Steven Digges · August 28th, 2017, 01:38 PM

Once again, this forum is amazing. You asked what you may have thought was a simple question and several audio pros give spot on advice. My guess is that it has been many years, if EVER since Rick has stood behind a Behringer mixer, yet he took the time to look up the exact model your guy will be using. Very cool.

If you would like any other input it would help us to know your configuration, mixer, encoder, camera etc. I'm sure we are assuming a lot based on your initial question. You said this is a webcast, that is a one shot live performance.

What is your is "radio guy" doing there? Broadcasting? Is he providing live sound reinforcement? What is he mixing, voice, music, stingers, commercials? It all matters to you.

In my shows we put all technical operators in the same area and cable out to cameras/operators. I'm guessing you are forty feet away because of camera position and your going to do it all, broadcast and operate??? I have been there done that when I absolutely had to. Even if that is the case audio is never a set it and forget it operation. Monitoring at all times is critical, so is gain adjustments.

I am an audio hack compared to the other guys but I have done my share of it. Here is a tip to avoid a potential disaster in this scenario. It looks like that mixer has a compressor but no limiter, but that does not mean he may not be limiting too. Those are great tools in the right hands. BUT....if you see your signal coming in nice and strong at an even peak but not falling off naturally on the low parts it may sound bad because he is mashing it down to crap on his end. You are at the mercy of his skills. There is more to this than signal flow. Likewise, if you are going to process or limit the signal on your end bring his signal in clean first so you know what your getting. I am only saying these basic things because I have seen to many things go wrong. I deal with audio and video operators all over the country. When a recording or broadcast of a live event goes bad 90% of the time it is the audio a crew will screw up. I leave nothing to chance. I am there to make sure it all works, if it doesn't I loose a valuable client! I can not let that happen.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Scott Holt · August 28th, 2017, 05:26 PM

I don't own a Behringer mixer but is there something bad about them? I own the Yamaha MG12XU.

It is a live stream sporting event. When you work for anything associated with education you don't always have the resources that you want or need to make things work the way you want it. I have come to realize that if it works great. If it doesn't, better luck next time. We provide our viewers free viewing of our stream even though we have to pay for access. We try our best and do a great job but sometimes no matter how hard you try you can't beat technology. If it doesn't want to work, it won't.
Internet where we are located is worse than some 3rd world countries. I used to get sick about us not being able to have a good stream or even a stream at all when we travel because some places just don't have a good source for internet.
When we are at home it is a different story because we have set up all of our things to work properly.
I wish it were that simple to just snap your fingers and everything would be setup the way it should be but that is not going to happen in my field.
The radio guy and I are 2 separate entities and he has agreed to give me his radio feed so I don't have to go out and find a play by play and color man. I wish we could be seated side by side but his room is tiny and our room is upstairs 40' away. Nothing we can do about that but that is much better than when we travel. Half the time we are not within 60' of our radio guy so we have to go wireless to get his feed. This is by far ideal but it beats the alternative. No play by play. And much of the time these places don't even have a room inside but make us film and do graphics outside with no roof or protection at all. We have been lucky over the last 4 years of doing this that we have never been rained on. That would kind of suck.

I do really appreciate the help that this forum has given me. I did already have an idea about what was said but I needed some reassurance from someone that has more experience than I do with this stuff. It's always better to be safe than sorry.
I'm sure half of what I've said doesn't make any sense and I've rambled long enough on this. Thanks again for all your help. I really, really appreciate it. Have a great day.

Steven Digges · August 28th, 2017, 06:58 PM

Hey Scott,

Hope I did not sound condescending in any way. Sports is a tuf gig to produce, glad to know what your up against. After four years in the trenches without a proper budget you must know what your doing.

IMHO It is not the technology that works or does not work, it is the budget. Money can fix anything technological. We all fight the budget battle. I have not had a client with a blank check in several years now, those days are over even with big corporations.

Nothing specifically wrong with Behringer mixers. Lets just say they are considered to be more prosumer than broadcast quality. You are not going to see a lot of them in control rooms.

The good news is you are working with an experienced play by play guy here. He understands levels and you know his. That is half the battle.

As mentioned, go with a balanced feed from source to input and you will be fine. A 40 foot stadium run can pick up a lot of interference if not balanced. Your Yamaha has plenty of line inputs to handle the Behringer feed.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Scott Holt · August 28th, 2017, 07:05 PM

No, you did not sound condescending. I hope I did not sound that way. I was just trying to explain why I do what I do is all. I really appreciate any feedback as long as people don't call me names. :)
This forum is one of the best ways a person can learn other than hands on work. Thanks again for your advice. I always appreciate good advice. Sometimes I even like bad advice.

Rick Reineke · August 29th, 2017, 11:29 AM

To elaborate, with the Yamaha MG12XU in the chain. You either need a 1/4" TRS to 1/4" TRS or a 1/4" TRS to XLR-M. I would opt to use the stereo line level input channels 9 or 11, which are mono if the right input is not used, and since it's a spoken word feed, a mono feed is adequate. An XLR input could also be used for line level with the 26dB pad engaged.

Forty feet is a relatively short cable run for balanced mic or line. With balanced line level, at least 500 feet can be expected w/o any audible degradation.. using decent quality shielded cable of course..

I'm with Steven on the Behringer mixers, not my favorite either, but should work OK along with a competent operator. I've used lots of Yamaha mixers in my tenure though, from the original PM and MG series to the digital LS-9.

Scott Holt · August 29th, 2017, 11:38 AM

This may not be the best scenario but here is what I am going to do for several different reasons. I am running a 30' Whirlwind XLR cable to a point in each room.
At the radio room I have not run it all the way for the purpose of not having a bunch of excess cable laying around. I will actually hook up a short 6' Canare cable with XLR M to 1/4" plug connecting to the XLR coming into the room and to the radio mixer. On the other end I will just hook up a short 6' XLR to the one end of the incoming cable to the control room and then to the mixer. I don't know if that makes sense or not but it works as we have tested it. Thanks again. You guys are very helpful.

August 26th, 2017, 12:17 PM	#1
Scott Holt Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Scott City, Kansas Posts: 71	Right type of audio cable to use. I am going to use the audio from our radio guy to go along with our stream feed. He has only main output L & R left to use on his mixer which is a 1/4" phone plug. I am then need to use some type of adapter to convert it to an XLR connection which is what I have plugged into my mixer. I have had several people give me several different things on what I should do to make it work. I was actually looking for a dual phone jack to XLR adapter cable and did find one but it was way too expensive for no more than what we are doing. I was actually looking at using something like this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop to then add to this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WZQH0M8...WA1PPAW13&th=1 which will then run into a 35' XLR cable hooked up to my mixer. Someone suggested this may be better for a combination This https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop into this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop which will also then run into a 35' XLR cable hooked up to my mixer. Someone also suggested running 2 separate cables to my mixer by using something like this but 2 of them. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WZQH0M8...=1JK1WA1PPAW13 The problem with the last one is that it is a run of 40'. I would need 2 40' runs. So let me run through my scenario of what I am going to do again. Go from main out phone jack L & R and somehow get it to my mixer 40' away and into an XLR input. Any ideas? Thanks.

August 26th, 2017, 01:51 PM	#2
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. Are the outputs from the "radio guy" balanced? Typical (pro) line outputs are 1/4" TRS (three terminal plug). Most line inputs are 1/4" TRS as well, so you could get a pair of 50' cables with 1/4" TRS plug on each end. If the feed is not stereo (spoken word for instance) you would only need one cable. If you can get the Make/Model number of the mixers involved, we could tell you for sure what's needed.

August 26th, 2017, 02:49 PM	#3
Edward Carlson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North Hollywood, CA, United States Posts: 807	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. I think lots of confusion in these types of scenarios come from 1/8" stereo connectors and 1/4" TRS jacks. A 1/4" TRS jack, even though it looks like a larger version of the 1/8" stereo jack, is not stereo! XLR carries a balanced signal. That is, there is a positive, negative, and a ground. A stereo 1/8" cable carries two positives (one for left and one for right,) and a negative. We call this unbalanced. The Hosa STP-202 cable you linked is an insert cable. On certain consoles, you can use one of these cables to send audio to an effects processor, then back into the console. You insert the effects back into your mix with only one cable. The audio on all the plugs is unbalanced, but the TRS jack has audio flowing both directions. This is not what you need. If you absolutely have to run the audio stereo, then you need two TRS to XLR cables, like the LyxPro cable you linked. If the audio is only being run mono, then there's no reason for you to record it in stereo, so only one of those cables would be needed.

August 26th, 2017, 04:06 PM	#4
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. On many consoles these days, the XLR is microphone level only, If there's no mic/line switch, the line input is usually directly under it or in close proximity to the XLR, like in this Allen&Heath input channel below. If the mic input is fed line level, it will likely distort badly. Attached Images

August 27th, 2017, 01:12 PM	#5
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. It may not be simple. Three conductor (TRS - tip, ring sleeve) 1/4" phone can be stereo, as in the head phone jacks on some gear, an effects I/O as described above, it can be balanced as in the typical input/output of pro gear, and can be low or high impedance, and mic, consumer line, or pro line level. The only way to tell is to know what the gear at both ends is, which input/output connections are being used, and any related wswitch settings. If connecting you mixer to someone else's output at possibly line levels, you may want to have a "direct box" to provide electrical/ground loop isolation. Its not brain surgery, just potentially complicated due to the number of possible options. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

August 28th, 2017, 11:21 AM	#8
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. The Behringer XENYX Q1202 Mains, FX Send and Control Room outputs are balanced via 1/4 inch TRS jacks (+4dB nominal). The Control Room output is the same as the mains but would be subject to Solo interruption, and the Headphone/CTRL Room level control would affect the output level feed. So I would stay away from that if the 'radio guy' is using headphones. Another good output option is using the FX send outputs if it's not being used already. Just set the channel(s) FX send and master FX send to unity (12:00 o'clock). The 2-track output has the same mix as the mains, but it's unbalanced, via RCA (phono) jacks, which could be used for a short cable run (typically recommended to be under 10 ft). A PDF of the manual is here. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-t5Ckr_ZIbrRmQ

August 28th, 2017, 11:34 AM	#9
Scott Holt Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Scott City, Kansas Posts: 71	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. I think I will be able to hook up to the main which seems like the best option from what you say. Thanks so much for the advice. I appreciate greatly.

August 28th, 2017, 01:38 PM	#10
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. Once again, this forum is amazing. You asked what you may have thought was a simple question and several audio pros give spot on advice. My guess is that it has been many years, if EVER since Rick has stood behind a Behringer mixer, yet he took the time to look up the exact model your guy will be using. Very cool. If you would like any other input it would help us to know your configuration, mixer, encoder, camera etc. I'm sure we are assuming a lot based on your initial question. You said this is a webcast, that is a one shot live performance. What is your is "radio guy" doing there? Broadcasting? Is he providing live sound reinforcement? What is he mixing, voice, music, stingers, commercials? It all matters to you. In my shows we put all technical operators in the same area and cable out to cameras/operators. I'm guessing you are forty feet away because of camera position and your going to do it all, broadcast and operate??? I have been there done that when I absolutely had to. Even if that is the case audio is never a set it and forget it operation. Monitoring at all times is critical, so is gain adjustments. I am an audio hack compared to the other guys but I have done my share of it. Here is a tip to avoid a potential disaster in this scenario. It looks like that mixer has a compressor but no limiter, but that does not mean he may not be limiting too. Those are great tools in the right hands. BUT....if you see your signal coming in nice and strong at an even peak but not falling off naturally on the low parts it may sound bad because he is mashing it down to crap on his end. You are at the mercy of his skills. There is more to this than signal flow. Likewise, if you are going to process or limit the signal on your end bring his signal in clean first so you know what your getting. I am only saying these basic things because I have seen to many things go wrong. I deal with audio and video operators all over the country. When a recording or broadcast of a live event goes bad 90% of the time it is the audio a crew will screw up. I leave nothing to chance. I am there to make sure it all works, if it doesn't I loose a valuable client! I can not let that happen. Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

August 28th, 2017, 05:26 PM	#11
Scott Holt Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Scott City, Kansas Posts: 71	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. I don't own a Behringer mixer but is there something bad about them? I own the Yamaha MG12XU. It is a live stream sporting event. When you work for anything associated with education you don't always have the resources that you want or need to make things work the way you want it. I have come to realize that if it works great. If it doesn't, better luck next time. We provide our viewers free viewing of our stream even though we have to pay for access. We try our best and do a great job but sometimes no matter how hard you try you can't beat technology. If it doesn't want to work, it won't. Internet where we are located is worse than some 3rd world countries. I used to get sick about us not being able to have a good stream or even a stream at all when we travel because some places just don't have a good source for internet. When we are at home it is a different story because we have set up all of our things to work properly. I wish it were that simple to just snap your fingers and everything would be setup the way it should be but that is not going to happen in my field. The radio guy and I are 2 separate entities and he has agreed to give me his radio feed so I don't have to go out and find a play by play and color man. I wish we could be seated side by side but his room is tiny and our room is upstairs 40' away. Nothing we can do about that but that is much better than when we travel. Half the time we are not within 60' of our radio guy so we have to go wireless to get his feed. This is by far ideal but it beats the alternative. No play by play. And much of the time these places don't even have a room inside but make us film and do graphics outside with no roof or protection at all. We have been lucky over the last 4 years of doing this that we have never been rained on. That would kind of suck. I do really appreciate the help that this forum has given me. I did already have an idea about what was said but I needed some reassurance from someone that has more experience than I do with this stuff. It's always better to be safe than sorry. I'm sure half of what I've said doesn't make any sense and I've rambled long enough on this. Thanks again for all your help. I really, really appreciate it. Have a great day.

August 28th, 2017, 06:58 PM	#12
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. Hey Scott, Hope I did not sound condescending in any way. Sports is a tuf gig to produce, glad to know what your up against. After four years in the trenches without a proper budget you must know what your doing. IMHO It is not the technology that works or does not work, it is the budget. Money can fix anything technological. We all fight the budget battle. I have not had a client with a blank check in several years now, those days are over even with big corporations. Nothing specifically wrong with Behringer mixers. Lets just say they are considered to be more prosumer than broadcast quality. You are not going to see a lot of them in control rooms. The good news is you are working with an experienced play by play guy here. He understands levels and you know his. That is half the battle. As mentioned, go with a balanced feed from source to input and you will be fine. A 40 foot stadium run can pick up a lot of interference if not balanced. Your Yamaha has plenty of line inputs to handle the Behringer feed. Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

August 28th, 2017, 07:05 PM	#13
Scott Holt Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Scott City, Kansas Posts: 71	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. No, you did not sound condescending. I hope I did not sound that way. I was just trying to explain why I do what I do is all. I really appreciate any feedback as long as people don't call me names. :) This forum is one of the best ways a person can learn other than hands on work. Thanks again for your advice. I always appreciate good advice. Sometimes I even like bad advice.

August 29th, 2017, 11:29 AM	#14
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. To elaborate, with the Yamaha MG12XU in the chain. You either need a 1/4" TRS to 1/4" TRS or a 1/4" TRS to XLR-M. I would opt to use the stereo line level input channels 9 or 11, which are mono if the right input is not used, and since it's a spoken word feed, a mono feed is adequate. An XLR input could also be used for line level with the 26dB pad engaged. Forty feet is a relatively short cable run for balanced mic or line. With balanced line level, at least 500 feet can be expected w/o any audible degradation.. using decent quality shielded cable of course.. I'm with Steven on the Behringer mixers, not my favorite either, but should work OK along with a competent operator. I've used lots of Yamaha mixers in my tenure though, from the original PM and MG series to the digital LS-9.

August 29th, 2017, 11:38 AM	#15
Scott Holt Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Scott City, Kansas Posts: 71	Re: Right type of audio cable to use. This may not be the best scenario but here is what I am going to do for several different reasons. I am running a 30' Whirlwind XLR cable to a point in each room. At the radio room I have not run it all the way for the purpose of not having a bunch of excess cable laying around. I will actually hook up a short 6' Canare cable with XLR M to 1/4" plug connecting to the XLR coming into the room and to the radio mixer. On the other end I will just hook up a short 6' XLR to the one end of the incoming cable to the control room and then to the mixer. I don't know if that makes sense or not but it works as we have tested it. Thanks again. You guys are very helpful.