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Old July 12th, 2006, 06:47 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
Everything in balance - it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to spend on the order of 4 or 5 kilobucks in microphones and mixer, etc, and then have the sound quality ultimately depend on quality of the A/D converters in a sub-$100 consumer grade recorder. For double system continuing with the same level of equipment as the camera, mics and mixer you've mentioned, etc, I'd look at HHB Portadisk if you're attracted to the minidisc format, Marantz 670, Sound Devices 702T, 722, or 744T, Tascam HD-P2 or similar offerings from Edirol. That covers the range from slightly sub 1 kilobuck up to around 5k. Of course if money is no object you could go for a HHB Portadrive or a Deva V, either of which will set you back circa 15 grand <grin>.
First of all the Sony RH-10 is not made any more and certainly was not a sub-$100 recorder. Think around $300. A similar model would be the new RH-1 ($330), or the slightly simpler M100 ($250).

But even a non-Hi type from Sony or Sharp will surpass the audio quality you can get from a PD, even more from any HDV. I did tests that prove that, using quality mics and mixers. BTW: I live off renting audio equipment, so it's my business to know what works and how it works.

Second it's linear PCM we are talking about, and as long as you use the minidisc line input your sound will be comparable to DAT. Taping in a much better media than tape: MD.

I don't think HHB Portadisk or Marantz MD systems are too good, if we compare them to mating a quality Hi-MD recorder (which neither the HHB nor the Marantz are not) with a Sound Devices Mixpre ($666). That might be the best way to spend less than a kilobuck. Even the MD media is much more practical than that used on the several-kilobuck SD 722 or 744.

No comments about the Portadrive or Deva, of course.
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Old July 13th, 2006, 05:14 AM   #32
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Hmmm... The HHB Portadrive and Deva V are definitely out of the question, way too expensive haha. And also I don't think I need to be using such advanced recorder (at least not yet :P). For now it does seem like the Sound Devices Mixpre and the Tascam HD-P2 are the two most appealing options. The SD 7 series also look very good but they are still quite costly. Am I right to say that a mixer is more important than a recorder? Do you guys think it's wise to but a good mixer like the 442 but not spend as much for the recorder?
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Old July 13th, 2006, 06:30 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Taidy
For now it does seem like the Sound Devices Mixpre and the Tascam HD-P2 are the two most appealing options. The SD 7 series also look very good but they are still quite costly. Am I right to say that a mixer is more important than a recorder? Do you guys think it's wise to but a good mixer like the 442 but not spend as much for the recorder?
You are quoting quite an interesting dilemma: where to spend the money?

In the old times that was much easier, as the Nagra did both things well: mix and record. Then came DAT, which didn't last long. And now there are several ways to record, none being the winner, which is a pity.

Sound Devices seems not to be able to attend the demand for their recorders, and the usual words at B&H for it are "accepting orders" or "out of stock". Frustrating.

The other good devices (Deva, Portadrive, Fostex) are too expensive and not too easy to learn using. Cheaper devices, like some from Tascam and Fostex, are not that reliable or have several compromises.

So if you don't want to spend money on what you are not sure of, I think you should spend it on a good basic mixer. The Sound Devices Mixpre or 302 are good deals, for two or three mics. You would have to pay a lot more for going for 4 channels, and you may never need them. That is if you are not planning to become a full time location soundman.

And here comes the recorder question again: it won't be easy to solve. My suggestion still goes: Hi-MD. It's cheap, reliable, high quality. There are recent releases from Edirol and the Microtrack from M-Audio, only for wav recordings, of course.

One thing that is not mentioned anywhere on this thread is that you may need doing some stereo pick-ups too, so you should have some way to set your Schoeps mics as a stereo pair. And for that you definitely need a mixer.

The mic suspensions mentioned are not that good, IMHO, and you should look for something more "elastic", something that lets your mics to "float" as you move them. The PSC suspension is good for less-sensitive mics.
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Old July 13th, 2006, 07:20 AM   #34
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This CF-based model seems like a good compromise:

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/702t.htm

Priced $2,375 at B&H and in stock.

About the integration of mixer and recorder have a look at what SD says:

"While the 702T is a very capable recorder by itself, it truly excels when used in conjunction with an outboard audio mixer such as Sound Devicesí own 442 or 302."

Will that help on your decision?


Carlos
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Old July 13th, 2006, 09:12 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez
First of all the Sony RH-10 is not made any more and certainly was not a sub-$100 recorder. Think around $300. A similar model would be the new RH-1 ($330), or the slightly simpler M100 ($250).

...

Second it's linear PCM we are talking about, and as long as you use the minidisc line input your sound will be comparable to DAT. Taping in a much better media than tape: MD.

I...
Whgen I googled for the RH-10 yesterday I could have sworn the price I saw was $79.99. The current model lists as a MZRH-10 on the Sonystyle website for $399, don't how I could've missed it.

Linear PCM or not, the result is only going to be as good as the Analog to Digital converters doing the signal conversion and I just can't believe the converters in a consumer Walkman are going to be as good as those in a professional recording interface or recorder.
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Old July 13th, 2006, 09:33 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Taidy
Hmmm... The HHB Portadrive and Deva V are definitely out of the question, way too expensive haha. And also I don't think I need to be using such advanced recorder (at least not yet :P). For now it does seem like the Sound Devices Mixpre and the Tascam HD-P2 are the two most appealing options. The SD 7 series also look very good but they are still quite costly. Am I right to say that a mixer is more important than a recorder? Do you guys think it's wise to but a good mixer like the 442 but not spend as much for the recorder?
Remember the SD MixPre is a mixer/preamp while the Tascam HD-P2 is a recorder. They complement each other but they're not either/or replacements for each other. Most recorders do have direct mic inputs it's true, so strictly speaking, a mixer isn't always necessary with one. However the combination of a mixer and a recorder gives you the more control and flexibility than a recorder by itself. If you're going to record in camera, OTOH, the camera replaces the recorder and a mixer upstream from the camera again gives you more flexibility and control.

In essence your choices for the basic signal paths and recording devices are:

Single System...
Picture: Camera
Sound: Mic->Mixer/Preamp->Camera

Double System...
Picture: Camera
Sound: Mic->Mixer/Preamp->Recorder

You can possibly eliminate the mixer from either one but with some sacrifices.

The 442 is great but a lower priced alternative you might want to look at that is equal in quality, just doesn't have quite as many features, is the 302. Essentially what it gives up are 1 mic input (3 intead of 4) and direct outs for each mic input (the 442 allows you to tap the mic signals for each input after the preamps but before the mixer sections, useful for multitrack recording on the 744T recorder or similar). I've been giving a lot of thought to a 302 to use with either a Tascam HD-P2 or a SD 702T. I'm leaning towards the SD since while the Tascam supports timecode input it doesn't generate code.
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Old July 13th, 2006, 10:33 AM   #37
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One thing I have heard is that the 442 can only take
2 "mic level" ins, not 4. The other 2 ins must be "line
level". Not sure if this is true or not.
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Old July 13th, 2006, 11:10 AM   #38
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More coffee for you. The 744T has two preamps. The 442 has four.

I own both.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:17 PM   #39
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Ok, so here we go... I'm going to try to sum everything up.

1) Mics: Schoeps CMC641 and CMIT5U
2) Mixer: Sound Devices 442
3) Recorder: Sound Devices 702
4) Boom pole: K-tek 152
5) Shockmount: PSC? (any better suggestions?)
6) Wind protection: Rycote
7) Headphone: Sony MDR 7506

I think I got it all there. What do you guys think?
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:23 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Taidy
Ok, so here we go... I'm going to try to sum everything up.

1) Mics: Schoeps CMC641 and CMIT5U
2) Mixer: Sound Devices 442
3) Recorder: Sound Devices 702
4) Boom pole: K-tek 152
5) Shockmount: PSC? (any better suggestions?)
6) Wind protection: Rycote
7) Headphone: Sony MDR 7506

I think I got it all there. What do you guys think?
Just a slight alteration - the SD 702T instead of the 702 so you have timecode capability. And if you're going to have a boom op, a Sound Devices MM-1 mic preamp and headphone amp so he too can monitor.
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:24 PM   #41
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Yes 702T

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Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:33 PM   #42
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Wow, thanks for the fast reply, Steve and Ty. Ouch, all these is going to cost so much. I gotta brace myself for bankruptcy haha.

I have one last question guys. For the shockmount, I should get the universal PSC mount right?
Do I need to get the mount adapter as well? -> as in this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 01:01 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Taidy
5) Shockmount: PSC? (any better suggestions?)
6) Wind protection: Rycote
7) Headphone: Sony MDR 7506
5) You should look for a better shockmount. The PSC is recommended for slightly more rugged microphones. The Schoeps and other higher quality mikes are a bit handling sensitive, and I prefer thin-rubber types (like the Schoeps A-20 or adapting the Beyerdynamic EA37). The microphone should "float" in the suspension when you move the combo.

6) Get a Rycote combo (suspension + blimp) for external use and get a quality foam windshield for internal use. Schoeps has some plastic windshield balls with silk as screen that are light and quite good, though not cheap.

7) Try other headphones from Beyer, AKG and Sennheiser too. If possible with the mixer and mic.
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 03:33 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez
5) You should look for a better shockmount. The PSC is recommended for slightly more rugged microphones. The Schoeps and other higher quality mikes are a bit handling sensitive, and I prefer thin-rubber types (like the Schoeps A-20 or adapting the Beyerdynamic EA37). The microphone should "float" in the suspension when you move the combo.

6) Get a Rycote combo (suspension + blimp) for external use and get a quality foam windshield for internal use. Schoeps has some plastic windshield balls with silk as screen that are light and quite good, though not cheap.

7) Try other headphones from Beyer, AKG and Sennheiser too. If possible with the mixer and mic.
Carlos, I was under the impression that PSC is recommended for more sensitive mics. I guess if I'm getting Schoeps mics then the logical thing to do would be to get a Schoeps shockmount as well?

What do you mean by external and internal use for the Rycote? I thought if I get the combo, I can use it both for indoor and outdoor? Are there different requirements?

The Sony MDR 7506 seems good enough to me and most people in this forum seem to lean on that one as well.
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 04:45 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Taidy
...The Sony MDR 7506 seems good enough to me and most people in this forum seem to lean on that one as well.
The 7506's are an industry standard and you can't go wrong with them. Another option that provides somewhat better isolation are the Sennheiser MD25 if that's an important issue for you. Me, I have 7506s.
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