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Old December 23rd, 2005, 12:16 PM   #1
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How well will this work?

currently own hd100 which only has 2 xlr inputs. Would it be possible to use a mini-disk recorder with xlr adapters, balanced leads and a lavalier mic to record dialouge as clean as possible then and effects in post. If this would, in esssence, work has anyone got any ideas on how to sink it as clapper won't be an option. Also will recording the video footage in 720 24p cause any problems with sync that anyone can think of?

Man thanks, Greg C.
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 02:47 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Corke
currently own hd100 which only has 2 xlr inputs. Would it be possible to use a mini-disk recorder with xlr adapters, balanced leads and a lavalier mic to record dialouge as clean as possible then and effects in post. If this would, in esssence, work has anyone got any ideas on how to sink it as clapper won't be an option. Also will recording the video footage in 720 24p cause any problems with sync that anyone can think of?

Man thanks, Greg C.
It'll work but there may be better options than minidisc such as the current generation of CF and HD recorders. But why do you think a minidisc will record better audio than recording directly in-camera?

Using a pro mic and balanced cables but then an XLR adapter to plug it into the unbalanced input of a recorder doesn't get you any advantages. The simple XLR to unbalanced connection adapter will unbalance the entire system, negating any advantages of the balanced cable.

Without a clapper you'll need to look for someframe of video that you can match up to a recognized sound on the audio. How about just asking the talent to clap their hands together before starting their speech?

Nothing special about maintaining sync with 720p 24p shooting. 1 second of time is 1 second of time regardless of the frame rate and resolution you use.
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Old December 24th, 2005, 05:23 AM   #3
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Many thanks

Hi Steve,

Well, many thanks. It's funny but sometimes you need an objective view point to help you see the best way of approaching something. Believe me I've been a little worried about this one for sometime i.e. the sync issue. Really started to make the whole thing over complicated. The 'talent hand clap' idea is, quite frankly, inspired so simple yet so easily implemented. I did wonder whether balanced into unbalanced would defeat the object and, judging from what you are saying, it would. In this case, my questions are;

1) with such a short distance from talent's tie clip mic to mini-disk or other recording unit in thier pocket would I still need a balanced connection? if the answer is yes how would I achieve this?

2) In using the m-d or hd idea I don't think I will be able to use a mixer. In which case what problems do you forsee with this i.e. I imagine I will need some way of setting a level so that its not always peaking. However, I'm only going to be recording general conversation stuff (no shouting). Providing I get good clean sound from the two individual actors could I sort out everthing else in a post-sound mix?

3) do you have any ideas on hard disc units that are in mini-disk price range. Most of the ones I have looked at don't have a record button function.

4) Lastly, if this is a truly workable solution how would you suggest I best use
the two XLR inputs on the camera? I was thinking of a decent shot gun and maybe the other could take an ambient track of somekind but I'm not really sure.

I forgot to mention that the reason I'm going down this convaluted path is that i'm going to be using a steadicam rig which kind of makes using leads a bit problamatic.

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Merry Christmas, Greg C.
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Old December 24th, 2005, 06:32 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Corke
...

1) with such a short distance from talent's tie clip mic to mini-disk or other recording unit in thier pocket would I still need a balanced connection? if the answer is yes how would I achieve this?
Depends on the mic. Balanced would give you better insurance against noise but with that short a distance it might not be that much a factor. One solution is to use a recorder such as the m-Audio Microtrack 2496 that accepts balanced input on 1/4 TRS connectors.

Quote:
2) In using the m-d or hd idea I don't think I will be able to use a mixer. In which case what problems do you forsee with this i.e. I imagine I will need some way of setting a level so that its not always peaking. However, I'm only going to be recording general conversation stuff (no shouting). Providing I get good clean sound from the two individual actors could I sort out everthing else in a post-sound mix?
Why not? A minidisc recorder in the talent's pocket would preclude a mixer but a minidisc or other type of recorder being operated by a sound person for double system sound could be fed through a mixer.

Quote:
3) do you have any ideas on hard disc units that are in mini-disk price range. Most of the ones I have looked at don't have a record button function.
You probably should be looking at CF card units like the m-Audio I mentioned above. There are others from Edirol, Marantz, HHB, etc but they're not pocket sized.

Quote:
4) Lastly, if this is a truly workable solution how would you suggest I best use the two XLR inputs on the camera? I was thinking of a decent shot gun and maybe the other could take an ambient track of somekind but I'm not really sure.

I forgot to mention that the reason I'm going down this convaluted path is that i'm going to be using a steadicam rig which kind of makes using leads a bit problamatic.

...
You could use the on camera mic to record a guide track that will be thrown away in post but aids in syncing up the audio to picture.

Your last paragraph however may make all the rest immaterial. Why not put wireless mics on the talent and mount the receiver(s) on the camera? Or if you prefer a mixer in the loop, wired mics feeding a mixer feeding a wireless transmitter and then to an on-camera receiver?
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Old December 24th, 2005, 08:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Corke
currently own hd100 which only has 2 xlr inputs. Would it be possible to use a mini-disk recorder with xlr adapters, balanced leads and a lavalier mic to record dialouge as clean as possible then and effects in post. If this would, in esssence, work has anyone got any ideas on how to sink it as clapper won't be an option. Also will recording the video footage in 720 24p cause any problems with sync that anyone can think of?

Man thanks, Greg C.
Actually, the Sony M100 Hi-MD recorder does 16-bit 44.1 wav files and sounds pretty darn nice. I plugged a Rode Video Mic into one and they were an VERY good match. You can USB the files to your desktop and right into your production. (That would require some sample rate conversion, which might be problematic and why is clapper not an option?)

Anyway, take a trip to my online archive and look for the Sony M100 Masters folder. Hear for yourself.

Um, but why not just record into your camera and save yourself the headaches?

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Old December 26th, 2005, 03:48 AM   #6
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Thanks

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input. I guess the reason I was trying to find another solution to radio mics is beacause I am unsure as to how well they will work and the expense. I will be shooting mainly in central London and Iv've been led to believe that this is not a good enviroment for radio mics. If this is to the contrary then I was wondering if you guys could perhaps recommend a few options and there relative effectiveness i.e. 1 unit @£300, 1 unit @£600 and 1 unit @£900 for e.g.

Hope you guys had a good Xmas. All the best, Greg C.

P.S. Ty, I'm just going to look at your site now so forgive me if it contains some of the answers to my questions.
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Old December 26th, 2005, 07:54 AM   #7
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Wireless mics require some experience, but that's why you got into this, right!?

Check with a good local vendor (or do a lot of homework) to find out what frequencies are available in London. Pay for their expertise and the product they suggest. It's an investment. Over the life of a good wireless set, you'll spend more on batteries than you did the gear.

The Sennheiser G series is a good place to start looking.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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