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Old January 21st, 2006, 07:35 PM   #1
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Need help..Hyper & shotgun comparisons..Need to purchase.

I'm an independent filmmaker currently working with the Panasonic dvx100, i'll be recording through a mixer(possibly the Mixpre) to the camera. I've only had experience with the mkh416 and i'm very much an amateur in the sound department. Please forgive my ignorance. I've been searching the forum on dvinfo.net and this group for comments on particular mics and it seems the more i read the more confused i get on deciding which one would be better suited for my needs. I'm slowly purchasing a sound kit for short films i will be producing. Problem is i'm a one maybe two man band(Robert Rodriguez style). I know i need a hyper(primarily on a boom) for indoors and a short shotgun mic for outdoors. I wish i can afford two of each but i can't. My budget is $1300us. But if i can get away with using a short shotgun mic for interiors for now, i'll pay extra for a better mic even though a mic with more off axis rejection would probably be better. I know you get what you pay for but i can't afford a Schoeps or higher-end mic right now..i wish. I'll rent before i purchase but i want to narrow down my selection first. Purchasing used mics is not an option for me.

The interiors will be mainly small rooms, low ceilings, small tile floor bathroom..i basically want a mic that can handle any interior condition(I know mics are like gulf clubs). The boom operator will be inexperienced and most of the scenes are with two or more actors in movement. I was thinking of using lavs at the same time, but i don't want to go wireless and i'm worried that they might cause problems. As for the shotgun i need a mic that can handle Canadian winters and any acoustic environment..suburbia..downtown city streets.

Does anyone have experience with the Sanken cs-1, can it be used well for in & outdoor boom use. I read it sounds thin, bright and can be sensitive to handling noise since it doesn't have any roll off? It's also an electret condenser, does that make a difference in sound quality? Can it mix well with other mics? I was hoping this would be the answer to all my prayers since i also need a cam mounted mic for shooting weddings. How does it compare to the AT4073a from Audio Technica for exterior use?( reviews are all good on this one..bang for the buck)

Interior work..AT4053a(i read that even with the roll off on, it picks up a lot on the low end and this can pose a problem, also it sounds gritty compared to the higher-end mics? How's the self-noise?) How does it compare with akg ck63 with c480b uls module(i read their very moister sensitive(canadian winters!) and some prefer the older modular model?) How about the ck93 from the Blue line series(same price as at4053), that's also electret, and i read can have a tad more self noise than all the mics mentioned? Read they make excellent plant mics but i need it for booming. I read a few mixed reviews on AKG'S. Would a moduler system be wise since i could also get a cadriod and omni for ambience use? I'm curious about the Neumann km 185 for it's warm sound, but i read it's not appropriate for booming since it lacks in reach and the Neumann's react badly to interference?) Not a lot of mention on the Neumann though. The Rode nt-3(read that it's too heavy for a boom mic?) and the oktava mk-012(scared to purchase one since they got so many fakes, is Oktavausa.com, a safe place to buy from, how about the sound room?)..these are the cheapest ones i came across, but should i even consider purchasing them as my main mic?

In conclusion:

Exterior work
Low end: AT897 vs NTG-1 ( i read battery powerd mics are inferior, is this true?..Ntg-2)
Mid end: AT4073 vs SANKEN CS-1(really confused with this one) vs AKG CK69dual( I figure only a bargain if i also get the ck63..you have to convince me to go over budget on this one) vs MKH416( how cheap can i get it for brand new) vs Beyer MC836( read it sounds like the kmr81)
I'm afraid the kmr81, cs-3 or mkh60 will kill my budget, are any of these mics good alternatives? I know the 416 is the standard.

Interior work
Schoeps not in my budget.
AT4053 vs KM185 vs SANKEN CS-1 vs AKG CK63 vs AKG CK93 vs OKTAVA MK-012 vs RODE NT-3? Drama..one boom mic, two or more actors, mainly small rooms, low ceilings, small tile floor bathroom..i basically want a mic that can handle any interior condition. What's the most warm natural sounding mic in this bunch?
If i must use lavs..which ones? What's cheaper than the Countryman B6 that's as natural sounding?

Are figure8 mics useful when you only have one mic, two actors and an inexperienced boom operator? Please forgive my ignorance. Can anyone mention well known movies that any of these mics were used in?
Are most of these mics too hot for my dvx100, do i need a pad?

MUCH HELP IS APPRECIATED. Thanks guys,
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Old January 21st, 2006, 09:09 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santino Grado
I know i need a hyper(primarily on a boom) for indoors and a short shotgun mic for outdoors. I wish i can afford two of each but i can't. My budget is $1300us. But if i can get away with using a short shotgun mic for interiors for now, i'll pay extra for a better mic even though a mic with more off axis rejection would probably be better. I know you get what you pay for but i can't afford a Schoeps or higher-end mic right now..i wish. I'll rent before i purchase but i want to narrow down my selection first. Purchasing used mics is not an option for me.

***Then your sound will suffer. You can use a Schoeps cmc641 hyper inside or out.


The interiors will be mainly small rooms, low ceilings, small tile floor bathroom..i basically want a mic that can handle any interior condition(I know mics are like gulf clubs). The boom operator will be inexperienced and most of the scenes are with two or more actors in movement. I was thinking of using lavs at the same time, but i don't want to go wireless and i'm worried that they might cause problems. As for the shotgun i need a mic that can handle Canadian winters and any acoustic environment..suburbia..downtown city streets.

****Wireless only cause problems if you buy cheap or the wrong frequencies for the wrong areas.

Does anyone have experience with the Sanken cs-1, can it be used well for in & outdoor boom use. I read it sounds thin, bright and can be sensitive to handling noise since it doesn't have any roll off? I

***It's already rolled off, but I wouldn't use it indoors.

t's also an electret condenser, does that make a difference in sound quality? Can it mix well with other mics? I was hoping this would be the answer to all my prayers since i also need a cam mounted mic for shooting weddings. How does it compare to the AT4073a from Audio Technica for exterior use?( reviews are all good on this one..bang for the buck)

****4073a is OK, very hot. Very rough around the edges of the pattern.


Interior work..AT4053a(i read that even with the roll off on, it picks up a lot on the low end and this can pose a problem, also it sounds gritty compared to the higher-end mics?

Next to a Schoeps, yes.

How's the self-noise?) How does it compare with akg ck63 with c480b uls module(i read their very moister sensitive(canadian winters!) and some prefer the older modular model?) How about the ck93 from the Blue line series(same price as at4053), that's also electret, and i read can have a tad more self noise than all the mics mentioned?


***Don't know about the selfnoise differences on those. 4053 is a good 2nd tier.

Read they make excellent plant mics but i need it for booming. I read a few mixed reviews on AKG'S. Would a moduler system be wise since i could also get a cadriod and omni for ambience use? I'm curious about the Neumann km 185 for it's warm sound, but i read it's not appropriate for booming since it lacks in reach and the Neumann's react badly to interference?)

*** I hadn't heard that, but you don't see them out there on booms.

Not a lot of mention on the Neumann though. The Rode nt-3(read that it's too heavy for a boom mic?) and the oktava mk-012(scared to purchase one since they got so many fakes, is Oktavausa.com, a safe place to buy from, how about the sound room?)..these are the cheapest ones i came across, but should i even consider purchasing them as my main mic?


***No.

In conclusion:

Exterior work
Low end: AT897 vs NTG-1 ( i read battery powerd mics are inferior, is this true?..Ntg-2)
Mid end: AT4073 vs SANKEN CS-1(really confused with this one) vs AKG CK69dual( I figure only a bargain if i also get the ck63..you have to convince me to go over budget on this one) vs MKH416( how cheap can i get it for brand new) vs Beyer MC836( read it sounds like the kmr81)
I'm afraid the kmr81, cs-3 or mkh60 will kill my budget, are any of these mics good alternatives? I know the 416 is the standard.

Interior work
Schoeps not in my budget.
AT4053 vs KM185 vs SANKEN CS-1 vs AKG CK63 vs AKG CK93 vs OKTAVA MK-012 vs RODE NT-3? Drama..one boom mic, two or more actors, mainly small rooms, low ceilings, small tile floor bathroom..i basically want a mic that can handle any interior condition. What's the most warm natural sounding mic in this bunch?

****Schoeps cmc641

If i must use lavs..which ones? What's cheaper than the Countryman B6 that's as natural sounding?

****Countryman emw are very good. There are a lot of good lavs. I have a list of them with other gear in my book.

Are figure8 mics useful when you only have one mic, two actors and an inexperienced boom operator? Please forgive my ignorance. Can anyone mention well known movies that any of these mics were used in?
Are most of these mics too hot for my dvx100, do i need a pad?

*****Don't bother with figure of eight. About the DVX 100 and sensitivity, probably not a problem.

MUCH HELP IS APPRECIATED. Thanks guys,
***No Problem.

Regards,

Ty Ford

PS: Get the Schoeps cmc641 and windbreaker and use it inside and out. Just know that you need to be 18 inches or closer.
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Old January 22nd, 2006, 11:55 AM   #3
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I'd like to educate myself on the topic of microphones. What are boundary mics used for in dialogue work? And same question applies for stereo pairs and stereo techniques? What's the best type of mic for interior ambience for small live rooms, auditoriums, cafés..etc and also exteriors? Thanks for helping out a newbie.
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Old January 22nd, 2006, 12:05 PM   #4
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Hello Santino,

For a starter, go to my website and click on the online archive in column 2.

Scroll down to the video folder and click on it.

Download the Mic Tutorial .mp4 video.

Plug in your headphones and listen.

I also have a small book on location audio. There's an info page about it on my site,

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Old January 22nd, 2006, 03:31 PM   #5
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The Mic Tutorial was useful, thank you. The hiss from the B6 did seem predominate to me.

Best,

I do have a few more question..is the Mixpre the best field mixer for under $700us? How does it compare with the Wendt X2 or PSC Mjr? Also what's the best switchable microphone attenuator? Which shockmount and zeppelin do you recommend for the at4053a and mkh416? Is there a shockmount and zeppelin setup that fits both these mics? Can i still get good results without a zeppelin in windy conditions?

These might be a dum guestions..can phase cancelation occure between lavs? How about between a lav and a boom mic? Please forgive my ignorance. Is the at4053 a good cam mounted mic..for reception hall event videography, next to a loud speaker would the 4051 be better to handle distortion? Is using the High-Pass Filter on the mixer better than say the Shure A15HP connected to the mic? Pop filter on a boom mic?

Thanks again,
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Old February 10th, 2006, 12:22 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Ford

PS: Get the Schoeps cmc641 and windbreaker and use it inside and out. Just know that you need to be 18 inches or closer.
I guess you forgot the part where he said the Schoeps isn't in his budget. :p
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Old February 10th, 2006, 06:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santino Grado
These might be a dum guestions..can phase cancelation occure between lavs? How about between a lav and a boom mic?
Thanks again,
YES, it can occur between any two microphones. General rule of thumb, if the distance between the mics is 3 times greater than the distance from the mics to the sources you're OK. Works OK for speech but I'd be more stringent with low frequency sources.
In general that's why it's good to record each source onto its own channel, if you get these kinds of problems you can deal with it, once it's mixed you're stuck.
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Old February 10th, 2006, 08:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Brechlin
I guess you forgot the part where he said the Schoeps isn't in his budget. :p
Um, Hi Tim. Your tongue out notwithstanding, the point was that he could use the hyper outside as well as inside and as long as he didn't need the reach of a shotgun it would work just fine.

In addition, he'd be getting much better sound to begin with.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box.

Ty Ford
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Old February 10th, 2006, 08:52 AM   #9
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I'm a big fan of the CK93 for interior work, at least for the price. Electrets do typically have higher self noise, but I've never found it to be an issue with this mic. In a quiet studio maybe it would be a bigger deal, but for location sound recording whatever hiss there is gets swallowed up by ambient noise. We often use it as a second mic, and it mixes almost interchangeably with a Schoeps. The difference is most noticeable in very bright rooms.

The CS1 is a true condenser by the way, not an electret.

The Sanken Cub 1 is a really handy boundary mic.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 04:13 PM   #10
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Re: Need help..Hyper & shotgun comparisons..Need to purchase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Grant View Post
YES, it can occur between any two microphones. General rule of thumb, if the distance between the mics is 3 times greater than the distance from the mics to the sources you're OK. Works OK for speech but I'd be more stringent with low frequency sources.
In general that's why it's good to record each source onto its own channel, if you get these kinds of problems you can deal with it, once it's mixed you're stuck.
And for that matter, you can get phase cancellation with only one mic. Put your talent next to a wall or hard flat surface such that their voice goes directly to the mic as well as bouncing off the wall and into the mic, and you can plainly hear the phase cancellation.

You can argue with the laws of physics, but you just can't win. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Old February 26th, 2012, 07:05 AM   #11
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Re: Need help..Hyper & shotgun comparisons..Need to purchase.

6 years to respond! I know you are a busy man, but wow!

hehe :,P
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