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Old May 14th, 2006, 02:33 AM   #16
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I took Steve House's (thanks, steve) suggestion a few months back, and bought a pair of AT 3031's. I'm very happy with them for live music.
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Old May 14th, 2006, 03:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Retread
Oh yeah, roger that. That will be the factor that drives me to try M-S, probably one of AT's single housing mics.
What are some of the M/S mics that are around?
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Old May 14th, 2006, 03:42 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum
That's funny, I was going to
So that's my experience. A pair of cardoid condensors will allow you to experiment with x-y, a/b and ORTF configs. X-Y is more mono-compatible, but, unlike Steve, I've mostly stopped worrying about mono compatibility and now use ORTF almost all the time because it has such a nice stereo image. My recordings aren't going via broadcast or cable, but.

Any inexpensive stereo bars around, that might give the
option to do X/Y, ORTF, NOS?
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Old May 14th, 2006, 06:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum
...
So that's my experience. A pair of cardoid condensors will allow you to experiment with x-y, a/b and ORTF configs. X-Y is more mono-compatible, but, unlike Steve, I've mostly stopped worrying about mono compatibility and now use ORTF almost all the time because it has such a nice stereo image. My recordings aren't going via broadcast or cable, but direct-to-video DVD distribution, and even the least expensive dvd player and TV support stereo these days.

...
Just a note - a lot of inexpensive "stereo" TVs are really mono electronics feeding 2 speakers spread only about a foot away. Even stereo TVs where the speakers are on the front of the cabinet, the speakers are so close to each other and they might as well be mono. Phasing problems can still occur as the sound travels from the speaker to the listener.
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Old May 14th, 2006, 07:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Largent
Any inexpensive stereo bars around, that might give the
option to do X/Y, ORTF, NOS?
I looked all over and couldn't find any - the inexpensive ones all put the two mics at the same height above the bar. Shure makes stand top unit - the A27M - but it sells for $60 !! Then I hit on an ingenious idea - Microphone holders and stand tops came in two thread sizes, 3/8 and 5/8, with 5/8 the most common. You can find 3/8 to 5/8 and back screw adapters almost everywhere and they only cost a couple of bucks. What I did was get one of each adapter. On one end of a cheap stereo bar I screw one of the mic holder that came with my AT3031's. On the other end of the bar I fasten first a 5/8 to 3/8 adapter, then on top of that a 3/8 to 5/8 adapter, and then finally the AT mic holder. The combined height of the two adapters stacked on top of each other puts the mic on that end about 1" higher than the mic on the other end, it's perfectly solid, and the perfect height for the vertical stacking required for X-Y placement. Problem solved!
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Old May 14th, 2006, 07:25 AM   #21
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For those who are interested in M/S, the Waves S1 Stereo Imager VST and DirectX plugin for your audio editing program decodes M/S tracks to stereo and lets you do some interesting things with stereo spread, balance, and direction in the process.
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Old May 14th, 2006, 10:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Largent
What are some of the M/S mics that are around?
AT835ST, AT815ST, Shure VP88
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Old May 14th, 2006, 10:20 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
I looked all over and couldn't find any - the inexpensive ones all put the two mics at the same height above the bar. Shure makes stand top unit - the A27M - but it sells for $60 !! Then I hit on an ingenious idea - Microphone holders and stand tops came in two thread sizes, 3/8 and 5/8, with 5/8 the most common. You can find 3/8 to 5/8 and back screw adapters almost everywhere and they only cost a couple of bucks. What I did was get one of each adapter. On one end of a cheap stereo bar I screw one of the mic holder that came with my AT3031's. On the other end of the bar I fasten first a 5/8 to 3/8 adapter, then on top of that a 3/8 to 5/8 adapter, and then finally the AT mic holder. The combined height of the two adapters stacked on top of each other puts the mic on that end about 1" higher than the mic on the other end, it's perfectly solid, and the perfect height for the vertical stacking required for X-Y placement. Problem solved!
Great idea, Steve. No vibration troubles with using the clip mounts instead of shockmounts? I use my AT shockmounts which have sets of holes in their side brackets allowing setting the mics at different levels, but it's a cumbersome process to do that, set the angles, make them level, and align the front ends.
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Old May 14th, 2006, 10:36 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Retread
Great idea, Steve. No vibration troubles with using the clip mounts instead of shockmounts? I use my AT shockmounts which have sets of holes in their side brackets allowing setting the mics at different levels, but it's a cumbersome process to do that, set the angles, make them level, and align the front ends.
Not so far, but then I haven't used them yet in a high vibration setting. The same adapters should work with shock mounts though. The main thing is figuring out how to get one mount 1 inch higher than the other. I looked all over for either a "tall" mic mount that was longer in the shank that connects to the stand than a regular mount or some sort of extension tube and concluded that such things don't exist. Interestingly, this month's Sound on Sound magazine has a review (page 56) of the Microtech Gefell small diaphram condenser mics and the $2500 stereo pair illustrated on the page comes with a mounting bar that looks almost exactly like mine with my thread adapter invention - total cost for my bar and adapters - $15
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Old May 14th, 2006, 11:17 AM   #25
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Again, it really is an elegant solution and I'm going to use it. Thanks.
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Old May 14th, 2006, 02:25 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Largent
Any inexpensive stereo bars around, that might give the option to do X/Y, ORTF, NOS?
I've been using an akg bar that is 3 pieces joined with two swivel joints - it works, but needs fiddlin'. I'll probably buy the sabra-som bar that is available for $40 at sound-room.com. I've not been doing x-y, so, haven't needed a riser as Steve developed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
For those who are interested in M/S, the Waves S1 Stereo Imager VST and DirectX plugin...
Many NLEs will allow you to duplicate the s channel and invert the phase, which is all you need to decode m-s in an NLE. There is a freeware vst plugin as well, from voxengo.com/freevst. Waves is great stuff too...

Setup in an NLE with no plugins as follows:
Mid channel - feeds L + R equally.
S channel - Left only.
Duplicate and phase inverted S channel - Right only.
And then you have an M-S decoding matrix. Relatively lower M/higher S is a wider spread. Higher volume M/lower S is a narrower stereo spread.

The actual M-S math is:
L = M+S
R = M-S
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Old May 14th, 2006, 03:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum
I'll try a mono render of some of my ORTF stuff later and report back.
It turns out I didn't have any spoken word and only a little music recorded ORTF on my drives that are mounted right now. I'm currently involved in a drive shuffle due to a large project that's just started.

I do have a short piano excerpt both as ORTF and as ORTF collapsed to mono at 16/44 that I'd be glad to send you, about 4mb total. Email me at sbloombaum at that yahoo address or PM me via this forum.

Not sure how revealing it is, but it sounds OK in mono.

I'd think if phasing artifacts were to be objectionable, they'd probably be showing up in the spoken word.

Next time I have some of my older drives mounted I'll find some more music to test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
Just a note - a lot of inexpensive "stereo" TVs are really mono electronics feeding 2 speakers spread only about a foot away. Even stereo TVs where the speakers are on the front of the cabinet, the speakers are so close to each other and they might as well be mono. Phasing problems can still occur as the sound travels from the speaker to the listener.
Well, yes, I suppose so. But the original poster asked an interesting question about regarding how ORTF actually sounds when collapsed to mono, and I realized I'd never tested it. While I appreciate the guidance of the conventional wisdom about phase and comb effects, I'm also *very* interested in how *my* ORTF mixes sound when collapsed to mono.

In ancient times we used to test these things, and every broadcast console had a "mono" switch in the monitor section.

"If it sounds good it IS good" - Duke Ellington.
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Old May 14th, 2006, 03:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum
It turns out I didn't have any spoken word and only a little music recorded ORTF on my drives that are mounted right now. I'm currently involved in a drive shuffle due to a large project that's just started.

I do have a short piano excerpt both as ORTF and as ORTF collapsed to mono at 16/44 that I'd be glad to send you, about 4mb total. Email me at sbloombaum at that yahoo address or PM me via this forum.

Not sure how revealing it is, but it sounds OK in mono.

I'd think if phasing artifacts were to be objectionable, they'd probably be showing up in the spoken word.

Next time I have some of my older drives mounted I'll find some more music to test.

Thanks for doing this Seth I really appreciate. I'll send you an Email.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum
Well, yes, I suppose so. But the original poster asked an interesting question about regarding how ORTF actually sounds when collapsed to mono, and I realized I'd never tested it. While I appreciate the guidance of the conventional wisdom about phase and comb effects, I'm also *very* interested in how *my* ORTF mixes sound when collapsed to mono.

In ancient times we used to test these things, and every broadcast console had a "mono" switch in the monitor section.

"If it sounds good it IS good" - Duke Ellington.
I agree, if there's a way to make good stereo setups sound good when converted to mono it's worth experimenting. Because I'm not a fan X/Y imaging and the M/S setup sounds nice and versatile but it also involves getting an additional figure 8 mic which means more $$$ for the whole, or less for 2 good cardioids and accessories in my case (accessories which might include 2 SKP500 transmitters).

Live music involving more than one sound source should always be listened to with the best stereo imaging possible IMO, which ORTF seems to give in most situations. I just want to make sure it will remain acceptable in the not so ideal situation where my productions were to be listened to in a mono environment.
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Old May 14th, 2006, 04:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lach
...I agree, if there's a way to make good stereo setups sound good when converted to mono it's worth experimenting. Because I'm not a fan X/Y imaging and the M/S setup sounds nice and versatile but it also involves getting an additional figure 8 mic which means more $$$ for the whole, or less for 2 good cardioids and accessories in my case (accessories which might include 2 SKP500 transmitters)...
Caution on the SKP500s (dang, there are cautions on everything, aren't there?). The idea of wireless stereo has a lot of appeal, but the SKPs use companding (compression at the transmitter and expansion at the receiver). Douglas Spotted Eagle, for one, has said that music suffers from companding. You may want to start a new thread and see if he'll explain a bit more about that.
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Old May 14th, 2006, 06:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Retread
Caution on the SKP500s (dang, there are cautions on everything, aren't there?). The idea of wireless stereo has a lot of appeal, but the SKPs use companding (compression at the transmitter and expansion at the receiver). Douglas Spotted Eagle, for one, has said that music suffers from companding. You may want to start a new thread and see if he'll explain a bit more about that.
Well I figured there might be something to that effect (loss a signal quality), after all the specs for the SKP100/500 say it has a frequency range of only 40hz to 18khz, so I was thinking of this solution as a last resort kind of thing.

This kind of brings an other question (great now I'm hi-jacking my own thread), how do you guys set any kind of stereo setup in a crowded bar for a live band with a dance floor around or in front of the stage meaning there is just no way of putting the mics on some stands close enough to the stage? Would you be clamping them to the ceiling close to the stage area in some way and running the wires alongside some pipe that might be hanging there?

Because as I said the SKP500 are a last resort kind of thing to me, I'd much prefer sticking to a wired setup for critical sound recording (not to mention save the money to buy better mics and/or accessories).
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