Is stereo necessary? Rode NT4 for documentary, interviews...
 

Hello

In another thread, the Rode NT-3 was recommended as a very good mic that can rely on an internal 9v battery or phantom power. I also noticed the Rode NT-4 stereo mic was highly rated and also ran on a battery.

I will be working part-time on a documentary that includes interviews and musical performances in rural China. When I have spare time, I will be documenting folk martial arts and musical art forms that are dying out and so want to do the best job I can with very tight budget restraints. For this reason, I'm considering the NT4 instead of using 2 mics for stereo.

Is stereo necessary for good musical recordings? For interviews?
Is the pickup pattern of this mic good for indoor and outdoor work?

I also have a Rode NTG-2 shotgun. From what I understand, this would be best for outdoor shots in which I want to reduce side and background noise. Can it be used indoors? Or would the NT-3 or NT-4 be much better for that?

I'd appreciate your opinions. Perhaps these questions are pretty elementary, but your opinions will help me to begin assembling my gear now.

Thanks!!

I had a Rode NT-4. The stereo image was great, if apparently backwards. That is, with the trademark gold dot and power switch up, the right was left and left was right. No mention of this in the manual. So I mounted it upside-down. My Audio-Technica AT-825 actually has an icon with "L - R" printed on the mic.

The other, and more troubling problem was handling noise. No matter what the arrangement, powerful subsonic noise would be generated. Even though inaudible for the most part, it so overloaded the input to my Sony DSR-1 that everything would distort. How bad was it? Even with the mic switched off the camera's meters were registering sound! So I got a pair of inline attenuators. -10dB helped, but it also diminished the desireable sound.

Mounted in a Rycote WS-4 with zeppelin and dead cat, wind noise wasn't too bad, but the slightest vibration or even simple motion would generate a nitroglycerine-like response from the NT-4. I sold it to a rocker who wouldn't know the difference. The other gripe was the size of the barrel and the weight. It would pop out of the Rycote suspension rings.

Caveat: It may be that I got a lemon. But how a mic this bad would get out the door is beyond me.

I went back to using my old AT-825. Zero handling noise, and gale-force winds are silent with it inside the Rycote WS-4. Very light, too.

Thanks Doug
That's not a very good experience. The last thing I want is strong low frequency noise.

How does the AT-825 compare accoustically to the Rode NT4. Is it supposed to be technically better?

I found these reviews of NT4 online. They really praised the performance of the mic. Of course I'll consider other options! http://www.digitalplayroom.com/rode/...&5/NT4&5p3.htm
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_rde_nt/index.html

I hate to ask about the obvious but I have to wonder if your NT-4 really was wired backwards - Rode generally has good quality control and it would be very unusual for something that basic to slip through manufacturing inspection. The mic is preset as an X/Y stereo pair. That means the centre axis' of the two capsules crosses over each other and so when the mic is mounted correctly with body parallel to the ground pointing towards centre stage, the gold dot up, and you're standing behind it facing the stage, the capsule on the right-hand side of the mic picks up sound from the stage-left and generates the stereo LEFT channel signal while the capsule on your left is producing the RIGHT channel signal.

Stereo is not neccessary for interviews. Conventionally, all interview audio will be mono or multiple channels of mono. The mono recording will then usually be placed in the center of the stereo field in post, or sometimes to the side.

Stereo is great for acoustic music recording, I like it a lot and reccommend it.

The NT-4 is two cardoid capsules in an X-Y configuration. What is handy about it is that it contains the two caps in a single microphone body, so you don't have to configure 2 mics, two mounts, a mounting bar, etc. every time you want to use it.

The NT-4 requires phantom power or an internal 9v battery. Best is if your camera or mixer accepts xlr connections and supplies phantom.

I'm really surprised to read of Doug's bad experience with the NT-4, I have a couple of friends who record from it to Marantz CF recorders, I've heard their recordings, they don't have the LF and handling emphasis Doug is reporting.

Yes, the barrel is unconventional, which is sized to fit a 9v batt. and two capsules, this thing is wide.

My sense of the mic is that it is one of the least expensive and least hassle ways to get into stereo recording. For me, X-Y doesn't provide the stereo image I want, I use two cardoid mics in an ORTF (110 degrees, about 7" apart) configuration, which can be as inexpensive as an NT-4, but lots more hassle to rig.

I just picked up an AT835ST, which has a front and a mid-side element. It can be set to deliver mid/side or two stereo patterns (one wide, one narrow).

So far it seems to work really well for recording ambience outdoors. I will be testing it more extensively over the next few days.

Yes, my NT-4 was bass-awkwards, so to speak. It must've been a Monday or Friday mic, or whatever day that is down under beyond the international date line. <g>

I set it up exactly as described, and conducted very simple and careful tests. Sure enough, the right-hand capsule, which is pointed to the left to pick up the left of the scene, recorded to the right channel, and vice-versa. I swapped the supplied XLR cable with that of my AT-825 cable, and it was the same.

As for the A-T 825, it is acoustically very transparent and quiet. The NT-4, were it not for the terrible bass transients, I think was, as the specs suggest, more sensitive.

I'm a one-man operation with an XL-2. That camera is the quietest I've every had, really astonishing. I run the AT-825 on phantom power with ALC, which works exactly as Canon promised, no pumping or breathing characteristics. I don't do people, I work outdoors, natural environmental sound. Hearing the birds singing, the rustle of the wind through the trees (but not the boxing of the ears), the lap of water at the shore is fantastic. Yet it can handle high SPLs with ease. No distortion.

Now, I realize that's not what you are aiming at, but this is my input. Maybe someday I'll rent an NT-4 to see if mine was the rabbit that got through the fence.

As for stereo for interviews, Jay Rose describes in one of his books the M-S setup used by the BBC to get that remarkable "presence" their video has.

I've noticed this in mine, too, that if it's shaken
when mounted in a mount, that it makes a noise
that makes you think the capsule inside is loose
or something, like a loud BUMP or THUD sound.
Is that what you mean about the "nitroglycerine"?
I haven't been able to replicate
it with hand shaking it, and haven't figured out
what causes it.

Dave,

I first noticed the handling noise holding the mic in my hand and simply turning it this way and that -- rumble rumble rumble. Okay, I'm no spring chicken (more of a Tyson chicken, now) and my joints aren't as quiet as they should be, but c'mon!

I had a piece of 1/4" thick polyurethane open-cell foam and cradled the mic in that. This produced a dramatic reduction in handling noise. I scratched my noggin trying to think of a situation where the supplied mic stand adapter would be useful and gave up.

Believe me, my faith in the Rode NT-4 was so great that I thought all the hype over Rycote's suspension was pure bull byproduct (now that is something I can use!). I even built an experimental suspension using the ultimate vibration canceller: wool felt. Unfortunately wool, when it moves, creates slight rasping sounds which the NT-4 would pick up, much like a lavalier will pick up a heart-beat if taped to the chest.

Aarghh! The final irony is that my AT-825 has a low-frequency rolloff switch and the Rode doesn't. The AT-825 would never need it.

Part of this is on my shoulders. I did the research prior to purchase and found virtually nothing on the NT-4, certainly nothing about it being used in the real world. The articles were always about studio applications in front of some guitar or other noise-maker.

I do mount the NT-4 on a camera but only use it for
tripod use. When I try it handheld and mounted on
a camera it makes that thumping noise, like it cuts
out recording and there's a major glitch in the
sound.

Gian Pablo, would love to hear more about this mike, especially if/when you get it in front of an acoustic musical performance. I'm also very interested to know how it works indoors, is the mid element overly sensitive to reflected low freqs? If you're listening to the mid element alone, is it more towards a hypercardoid or a short shotgun?

Its spec says "line cardoid", and it looks like a short shotgun, but they're fitting that side capsule in somewhere, I've always been curious about how much of the tube is side and how much is mid...

M-S is great. My understanding is that BBC mandates M-S recording from all suppliers of field production, which has done a tremendous benefit for stereo recording worldwide. What's rough is that we've got all these great suppliers of "value" short mono shotguns - you can get into a pretty decent mic for a very few hundred dollars US. Still searching for that "value" M-S mic.

What concerns me, Seth, is that these things
are listed as shotgun and "line". Is that like
"line gradient"? Normally you wouldn't want
to use a shotgun indoors due to the
hollow sound they develop, so I'm wondering
if these "stereo shotgun" mikes are really
for outdoor use?

Yeah, that's the question alright.

In this case, how "line" is line, how "shotgun" is shotgun? Within what looks to be the interference tube of a short shotgun, there's the figure-8 capsule, which must be in the slotted section of the tube, plus the mid capsule... so how much interference tube is left to provide side cancellation to the mid capsule? Does the mid-mic have the (hollow sounding) characterstics of a shotgun when used indoors?

I'm looking for a single-housing M-S mic for primary use indoors. With what I can afford there are really only two I'm aware of, the AT835ST and the Shure VP88. However, I don't know anyone who has either one, nor a retailer in this area, so I'm very interested in Gian Pablo's experience of the AT.

I've seen mixed reports about the VP88. Some mention
of it being pretty thin, even brittle.
I think (been awhile) I've seen
where some fellow had both the VP88 and the NT4
and he said the NT4 was better.

I, too, would like to have a single M-S mic but the
shotgun "appearance" of the AT mikes would
be quite a concern.

I know Sony used to make one that went for
in the upper-hundreds, I believe, but you don't
see it around at all. Somewhere I was reading
where a guy was looking for repair on this
M-S Sony. I think the list of the thing was ~$1400.
Looked similar to the VP88 and even had a AA
battery option.

Rode NT4 or AT-825
 

Thanks for the comments.

It seems that I'm still unsure which mic is the 'one to get'.
I've heard good reports about the AT-825, yet I've also heard good things about the Rode NT4. Doug provided info about problems with the NT4.

Does anyone else have experienc with these 2 mics?

I found these reviews of NT4 online. They really praised the performance of the mic. Of course I'll consider other options! http://www.digitalplayroom.com/rode/...&5/NT4&5p3.htm
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_rde_nt/index.html

Seems like one of the decisions you need to make when considering stereo mics is how you want to use them and whether your are planning to do X-Y recording or M-S recording.

I recently became an M-S convert after doing an outdoor interview in the Boston Public Garden with all sorts of noise in the background I had no control over and I thought I'd try an M-S (mid-side) configuration, and I absolutely love the results, it sounded so live and real. If you can't eliminate the ambience, you might as well live with it, and having the ambience in stereo made the dialog (recorded with the "middle" mic) stand out better from the surrounding noises. Running the two channels through an M-S decoder in post offered the ability to control the "width" of the stereo field. M-S offers an advantage over X-Y stereo: it sounds better when collapsed to mono. I've thought about doing this for a long time and finally found a use for that (no longer) esoteric feature of my Sound Devices 302 mixer which allows you to montor M-S in the field. now I'm a convert.

I can't compare the other models you are looking
at but I'll say the NT4 is very sensitive to wind.
Even a very light breeze will mess with it
terribly. You'll defintely need a furry covering.
I don't think there are any blimp systems for
the NT4, such as what are available with
AT822. I think Rycote makes a furry that
goes over the foam that comes with the
mic. This foam by itself is of almost no help for
wind outdoors.

Hi Seth,

In answer to your AT835ST questions...

The mic is about 15" long, and has about 11" of side vents. It's mid mic is basically the AT835 capsule. It has pretty good reach for a short shotgun (its no 816), allowing the mid channel to hear what you point it at pretty well. The side mic is a small figure-8 capsule mounted in the rear 1" of the slots. I find in very high noise environments, the side element gives out first, but we are talking 130~ish db/spl, pretty loud.

Haven't used this indoors yet, so can't comment on that. I don't buy into the "indoor=hollow" school as much as other comments on this board. I use a 416 indoors all the time for broadcast projects. YMMV. :-)

I used the VP-88 long ago, my big gripe with it was it had to be pretty close to the source to get a clear mid channel. But if you can get it in there, it has a good image. The AT can be placed much further away, and still get a nice sound. I like having the option, when I use mine its usually on-cam and further away.

Greg, thanks for that info. I believe, at 15" long, you have the AT815ST, the slightly longer version of the 835. I'm glad to read your experience, I think it's the same electronics in both mics.

Very interesting that your comparison of the 815ST is to a short shotgun mic. When I revisited audiotechnica.com for the specs, there is a feature on using the AT815ST at the Winter Olympics as a camera-mounted interview mic that also captures a stereo image of the environment. I'd assume that was backing up a hand mic.

I'm with you regarding use of shotguns indoors - if it sounds good it IS good. And of course we're always monitoring to make sure we have what we need! I think that the bad rep has come from use in small rooms. Typical indoors ENG/EFP is shot in large public and private spaces.

Lots of student and indie work is taking place in smaller private spaces such as houses, and with insufficient or no monitoring of sound. The omnidirectional nature of reflected LF depends on many things, such as room size, wall, floor and window coverings, and type of furnishings and placements. But I digress...

Back to the first OT subject, I'm very interested in the 835ST with acoustic music, which is a lot of my event shooting these days. Maybe I'll just have to buy one and put it through its paces.

What is M-S and XY?
 

Well.. this is interesting... I didn't know there was such a thing as X-Y recording or M-S recording until I read this list. Thanks David. I tried to search for basic info on M-S recordings (I'd heard that the BBC uses them a lot) but I found little to help me.

I do a lot of interviews and I want to voice to stand out clearly in the midst of background noise that I can do nothing about. So is an M-S recording the type I want to do? Can somebody explain (or point me to a resource online) what is M-S as opposed to X-Y?

And are there any reasonably priced M-S battery powered mics available?

I'm still open for users advice for Rode NT4 vs AT825! (Thanks Doug for your feedback on your NT4. From your experience it sounds like I DON'T want an NT4)

M/S stands for "Mid-Side" mic'ing. It requires two mics placed as close together as possible. One of them, the "mid" signal mic is usually a cardioid and is aimed stage centre or directly towards the sound source. The other mic, the "side" signal mic, is a Figure-8 pattern and is arranged so the long axis of the "8" points left-to-right, across the axis of the mid mic at 90 degrees. The resulting two signals are not stereo but are considered a "matrix" that contains all the information necessary for stereo once decoded. Either when recording or in post the two signals are combined as follows ... the "side" signal is mixed with the "mid" signal and the combination becomes the stereo Left channel. For the Right channel, the "side" signal is phase inverted 180 degrees (many NLEs do this right from the menu) and the result combined with the "mid" signal.

Left = Mid + Side
Right = Mid + (-Side)

This has all sorts of neat advantages. For example, when the Left and Right are mixed together to collapse to mono, the two side signals cancel each other out and you have pure mono without any of the phase issues other stereo mic techniques are prone to. If you're mixing to 5.1 surround, the "mid" signal all by itself becomes the front centre channel.

The March 2006 issue of Electronic Musician magazine has a good article on the technique.

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_front_center/index.html
http://emusician.com/mics/emusic_sum/index.html

The NT4 is kind of a dark mic (i.e. a bit low
in the treble area) which I don't think would
give it an open, airy quality like you might want
for nature work.

Suggestions for M-S mic?
 

Thanks for the explanation about M-S microphones.
I'll be doing some reading tonight.

Can you use these M-S mics to record on any recording device? How do you 'process' the audio afterwards? Sounds complicated for a novice!

Any suggestions for a decent battery powered M-S mic?

You can record with any stereo recorder, running the Middle into on channel and the Side into the other channel. In terms of monitoring the decoded signal in the field, the Sound Devices 302 and 442 mixers and MP-2 portable pre-amp support monitoring of M-S signals, for example. But you don't have to do this, what you have to do is decode it in post.

Many audio editing and mixing programs either come with an M-S decoder or you can add one as a plug-in. I use Digital Performer (from MOTU) for audio editing and mix-to-picture and it comes with an M-S Decoder among it's audio effects. The stereo spread can be adjusted, which is another cool feature of M-S stereo recordings.

BTW, the 422 and MP-2 also can provide as output a decoded stereo signal. I prefer to mix in post, but the 422 and MP-2 offer the option to do it in the field if you want..

As David said, there are any number of VST and Direct-x plugins for your editor that will take the M/S signals and ouput them in stereo but you actually can do it all in almost any audio editor or video NLE like Premiere Pro or Vegas without adding anything. You start with two mono tracks, the mid track and the side track. You take the side track and copy it to make a third track, then run a phase inversion on the copy (it'll be in the menu somewhere in most NLEs). Now in the audio mixer part of the software you pan the mid track to the centre so it goes equally to both left and right channels. The original side track is panned hard left and the inverted copy of the side track is panned hard right. Voila!

This might be the problem.

I've never used M-S but I've heard you monitor it in the
field by listening to the M track. (This is of course if you
don't have M-S decoder such as Sound Devices 302 or MP-2.)

The Rode Nt4 should be used with a shockmount, as with most condensers that are going to get a little "handling". The 2 capsules on the Nt4 are cardioid, so are susceptible to proximity effect wich increases bass response if recording sources very near. That would be twice the proximity effect for the sum of both capsules. A simple high pass filter around 60-100 hz will solve most of these problems :)
The only thing I dont like about that mic is that the capsules are fixed at 90 degress for X/Y, but you can't tweak em to open or widen the stere image a bit.
A Mid Side with an array of a cardiod and figure o 8 mics would always be better in my personal view, for music recording, or ambience recording, sfx gathering, etc, because you can freely tweak how wide you want the image, or how close. and M/S is also fully compatible with mono.

Which M-S mic should I use?
 

Thanks for the input everyone. And thanks Berns for the information about the Rode NT4. It seems like a good mic from the online reviews that I read.

But it appears that I should probably go with an M-S setup. I can only take a minimum of equipment and have to do the best job I can. Can anyone suggest a decently priced M-S microphone that takes batteries? I'd prefer NOT to use a phantom powered mic because my cheap equipment (Minidisc and a prosumer Panasonic DV camcorder) can't supply it. I will buy a Beachtek DXA-8 that can supply phantom power, but I don't want to rely on it for all situations. I'd much prefer battery power

Thanks for any suggestions!!

Some "stereo" microphones are actually two capsules in the same handle arranged as an MS array but most of the time M/S is recorded by using two separate microphones, one cardioid and one figure-8, mounted on two stands with boom arms positioned so the mics are together or on a stand with a stereo bar that holds both of them in proper alignment. One example of a suitable set might be an AKG Blueline C391B cardioid paired up with an AKG C394B figure-8 (planning on adding those mics to my own kit as soon as budget allows). Schoeps also has a figure-8 capsule in their MK series. Both AKG and Schoeps make extension cables to separate the smaller capsules themselves from the power supply and preamp section to make it easier to mount in a shock mount on the end of a boom pole if you're so inclined. Course we're getting fairly pricey for the pair here - B&H lists the C391B at $525 and the C394B at $828 US so you're getting up there in $$ for the pair and going Schoeps would easily more than double that. And all of those mics are phantom power only, no internal battery.

What about AT835st M-S mic?
 

Hi
Thanks for your suggestion. But again, where I'm going, I can't carry extra equipment and I certainly won't have the time to set up all the equipment properly as I move from one site to the next. I'll need the M-S mic.

I was reading about the AT835st at http://emusician.com/mics/emusic_aud...tst/index.html

Does anyone have experience with this mic?

Though I've never used that mic I'd have concerns about
using it indoors because it's a shotgun and shotguns
sound hollow indoors most of the time. The only
mic that comes to mind that fits "M-S plus battery"
is the Shure VP-88. They're $690 new. There's a used
one on ebay right now for $500 "buy it now". The
description on ebay says it only runs on phantom
but I believe that's a mistake; I think they all
run on a battery, also.

http://www.shure.com/microphones/models/vp88.asp

I am just getting started with an AT835ST. It is phantom power only, I think they have another similar model with battery.

I am using the built-in matrixing to get a L-R signal. I find that for interviews the L-R N pattern works well, but I need to turn OFF mic attenuation on my HVR-A1. For outdoor ambience the L-R W pattern is good. The stereo separation is very good, strikingly "wide".

I am not using low cut. I find that doing so makes the sound seem a bit empty. Maybe use it only for interviews.

It's a "hot" mike, but not so hot that you need to pad it all the time.

Gian, are you using that 835 indoors or outdoors?
If indoors, what type of room(s) and how's the
sound?

The only other mic Ray might want to look at is
the Sony ECM-MS957 ($200). I don't know
anything about it. Maybe someone else here
has tried it.

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ctSKU=ECMMS957

Verdict on the Sony ECM-MS957??
 

Well,.. this is getting interesting!
Now I've shifted my attention away from the X-Y stereo Rode NT4 to either a M-S stereo mic: either the $500 Shure VP-88 (it does take a battery or can be phantom powered) or the $200 Sony ECM-MS957. The Sony takes a single AA battery and has an XLR connector. I could use the AT835ST with my Beachtek to provide phantom power but really prefer a mic with its own battery so I can swap mics among my cameras and Minidisc players.

The Sony is much cheaper. Does its performance compare favorably to the SURE VP-88? Or is the SURE a far superior mic that I should get at any cost?

Again, I have to take into consideration the facts: The performances I want to record and people I want to interview are for archival research. I am recording their stories and experiences of an art form that will likely fade into history. I hope to get good audio, but I must take into account overall value for the dollars spent. I'll look to the the experienced members out there for advice once again...

I haven't used the Shure or the Sony but one
difference I might guess there to be is that
the Shure will give you the option to work
in post to set the width of the stereo image
by doing the decoding yourself, so as to
be able to bring out the center channel
more if you'd like, or to drop it back and
have a wider stereo image, blending in
the center more if it's overpowering.

The Sony might not give this option as it
could be all decoded within the mic and
the mix of the M and S deterimined by the
mic, so that if the center is overpowering
the sides you are stuck with it.

I made a recording with the NT4 of a small
choir but I could only get back so far from
them and the mic picked up all the center
and near singers more than the side
singers. If I had recorded it M-S I could
have dropped down the center M channel
to blend it better, atleast this is the way I understand
how M-S works. For this reason, I personally would
be looking for an M-S mic that would allow
me to decode the signal myself, and adjust
it to my liking in post. You may decide that
the price difference is not worth having
this capability.

I'd like to hear from anyone here who has
used the Sony.

Ray, do you have a Beachtek DXA-6 or DXA-8?

/Roger

I'm certain Sanken would have a mic to fill the need for a stereo shotgun although none of their kit is exactly 'cheap'. They work very well indoors as well.

And probably not battery operated.

As with all things subjective, you should take a listen. When it comes to things like mics and speakers, it's really boils down to, "is it good enough for me," and "does it fit my budget." Do you have a rental house nearby that you could rent the Sure from and determine if the sound it produces is what you're looking for? Listen... that's the only way to compare mics. Somethings "good enough" is all you need, other times, "the best I can afford" is the way to go, if the differences make a difference to YOU.

By the way, Rycote makes a Windjammer for the Shure VP-88, you'll want to have one of those (or the equivalent) in your kit to go with it.

Probably nobody makes a fur cover for that Sony.