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Old June 27th, 2006, 07:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Griesmayr
Can two iriver Giant Sqids omni mono mics be combined with an Y adapter to record stereo?
If so, what would be the best set up / positioning of the two GS? How for apart, X-ing position?

If the 2 GS could be set up well to record stereo, would you even prefer the GS over the AT822 for e.g recording concerts? or ambience?

When recording mounted to the cam when filming on the road there would be no way the GS could challendge the AT822, right?
I can't imagine a situation where a pair of Giant Squids would be preferable to the AT822 for recording a music performance. A pair of omnis is without a doubt a good and often used approach to recording music but generally not with a pair of bargain-basement lavs. There's no way a pair of $25 mics is going to to a proper job. Not to put words into his mouth but I think what DSE was referring to was using a pair of studio grade omnis such as perhaps AT3032s, or any of a number of other professional omni mics from A/T, AKG, Neumman, Schoeps, etc. You don't need to spend a fortune - the 3032s are usually less than about $200 each - but you get what you pay for.

The "X" positioning (actually usually more of a "V" or inverted-"V") is for directional mics like cardioids placed in coincident or near-coincident arrangements. A pair of omnis are usually set up in a spaced arrangement called "A/B placement" where something called "the rule of 3" comes into play. This says the mics should be at least 3 times as far apart as the closest mic is to the sound source. So if you had a band on the stage and the mics were 5 feet out from the front row, the mics should be about 15 feet apart and equidistant on either side of centre stage.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 10:12 AM   #17
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And as I'm sure Steve knows, but didn't happen to mention, due to phase cancellation the stereo from A/B placed mics doesn't collapse down to mono very well, as may be desired in playback in many TVs. The virtual single-point pickup approach of the AT822 is better for that.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 10:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Retread
And as I'm sure Steve knows, but didn't happen to mention, due to phase cancellation the stereo from A/B placed mics doesn't collapse down to mono very well, as may be desired in playback in many TVs. The virtual single-point pickup approach of the AT822 is better for that.
Right you are ...
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Old June 27th, 2006, 10:24 PM   #19
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Steve thank's you very much for the clarifications and explanations...- many times I feel in some threads because information and knowledge for pros and a consumer/hobbyist like myself are mixed and my questions will be naive or seem to be misplaced.

Something I would still like to find out:
I have learned that there is no mic for all uses as many beginners would like to have, but that a shutgun like the Videomic seems to be the most recommeded choice as 'default mic' for a consumer/hobby videographer.
For the kind of filming I have done so far I have not had the need to catch e.g. voices but rather the ambience. Would you still recommend me the Videomic or could I be better served with - for my level - a very good stereo mic like the AT822?
Or in other words: In which situations, besides wanting to catch voices/conversations, a shutgun would be favoured over a stereo mic?

If I'd get the Videomic ( just found out that I could get it for less than 90 USD here in Japan ) is it possible to separate it's shock mount to use it with other mics, e.g. the AT822 ? ( well, I imagine that best I'd get both mics, and if they could be used with one shock mount only that would be great ).
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Old June 27th, 2006, 11:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Griesmayr
If I'd get the Videomic ( just found out that I could get it for less than 90 USD here in Japan ) is it possible to separate it's shock mount to use it with other mics, e.g. the AT822 ?
No, the videomic's shock mount is integrated into the design. You can't separate it from the mic.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 05:32 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Griesmayr
Steve thank's you very much for the clarifications and explanations...- many times I feel in some threads because information and knowledge for pros and a consumer/hobbyist like myself are mixed and my questions will be naive or seem to be misplaced.

Something I would still like to find out:
I have learned that there is no mic for all uses as many beginners would like to have, but that a shutgun like the Videomic seems to be the most recommeded choice as 'default mic' for a consumer/hobby videographer.
For the kind of filming I have done so far I have not had the need to catch e.g. voices but rather the ambience. Would you still recommend me the Videomic or could I be better served with - for my level - a very good stereo mic like the AT822?
Or in other words: In which situations, besides wanting to catch voices/conversations, a shutgun would be favoured over a stereo mic?

If I'd get the Videomic ( just found out that I could get it for less than 90 USD here in Japan ) is it possible to separate it's shock mount to use it with other mics, e.g. the AT822 ? ( well, I imagine that best I'd get both mics, and if they could be used with one shock mount only that would be great ).
I generally think of "ambience" as general background sounds - babbling brooks, birds twittering in the trees, distant dogs barking, etc - that don't visually sync to picture. Shotguns are highly directional and reject those background sounds unless they happen to be coming from sources that lay directly in the direction the mic is pointed, ie, directly in front of the lens if the mic is mounted on the camera. In fact, rejection of ambient sound that would interfere with dialog recording is why shotguns were invented. For an on-camera mic the Rode is a viable choice but the situation where an on-camera mic is the best choice are really pretty rare - generally restricted to "run-and-gun" newsgathering where getting the shot is paramount. Shotguns are better used on a boom carried by an operator, on a stand just out of shot, or even hand-held by the talent. Getting the mic close to the voice is one of the keys to good sound. For ambience I'd suggest using a mic off of the camera so it doesn't pickup camera and operator noises and choosing a mic with a much broader coverage area, either a single point stereo mic like the 822 or a good quality mono omni mic - for ambience you want to caprture the sounds coming from most or all directions, not just from where the camera's pointed. For that matter, there's really no reason to record ambience in the camera along with picture at all and a small portable audio recorder such as the m-Audio Microtrak 2496 might be worth considering. Filmakers call it "wild sound" and you'd lay the ambience in against picture in post..

And BTW, if you are interested in a stereo mic, you might want to consider the AT825 as well. AT emphasizes that the 822 is for battery operation only but the 825 gives you the option of battery or phantom. power
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Old June 28th, 2006, 08:12 AM   #22
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thank you very much for your explanations Steve.

There is hardly any chance that anybody would hold the mic for me and I mostly will use it on camera even though I understand the warnings against it.

From what you say I believe that the AT822 could a better choice than the mono shotgun Videomic for me...

Just recently I bought myself an iriver iFP player/recorder and Giant Squid Omnis to be able to record audio independently. It is alright to record voice of somebody interviewed, in my case it would be more probably the voice of somebody in a documentation, but I don't like the recordings of sounds which come from more distance.

Do you think the AT822 would be a good mic to record to my iriver? ( my Pana mic is useless with the iriver )
BTW I wonder if the HD-MD really give superior recordings as the iriver H120 or H320 since they also are able to record in WAV. If using the firmware 'Rockbox' they even have live gain control and level meter! ( see my post at: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...345#post504345 )

Doesn't the AT825 cost quite a bit more and is quite a bit heavier? Would phantom power mean having to carry - heavy - power supply? Or would the power supply come from a mixer which I'd then use?
What are the main advantages of being able to use phantom power? Specially good for recording loud concerts?
Well, many new questions... I will have to research other threads for that.
I had not considered the AT825 because of it's price and because I thought it would mean more weight and bulk and since I film mostly while travelling I try to keep the volume and weight of my equippment down..it is growing and growing though...
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Old June 28th, 2006, 09:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Griesmayr
thank you very much for your explanations Steve.

There is hardly any chance that anybody would hold the mic for me and I mostly will use it on camera even though I understand the warnings against it.

From what you say I believe that the AT822 could a better choice than the mono shotgun Videomic for me...

Just recently I bought myself an iriver iFP player/recorder and Giant Squid Omnis to be able to record audio independently. It is alright to record voice of somebody interviewed, in my case it would be more probably the voice of somebody in a documentation, but I don't like the recordings of sounds which come from more distance.

Do you think the AT822 would be a good mic to record to my iriver? ( my Pana mic is useless with the iriver )
BTW I wonder if the HD-MD really give superior recordings as the iriver H120 or H320 since they also are able to record in WAV. If using the firmware 'Rockbox' they even have live gain control and level meter! ( see my post at: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...345#post504345 )

Doesn't the AT825 cost quite a bit more and is quite a bit heavier? Would phantom power mean having to carry - heavy - power supply? Or would the power supply come from a mixer which I'd then use?
What are the main advantages of being able to use phantom power? Specially good for recording loud concerts?
Well, many new questions... I will have to research other threads for that.
I had not considered the AT825 because of it's price and because I thought it would mean more weight and bulk and since I film mostly while travelling I try to keep the volume and weight of my equippment down..it is growing and growing though...
There's not THAT much difference in size and weight - 5.8oz versus 8.5 and 7.76" long versus 8.4"

Phantom would be supplied by a mixer. a Beach adapter, or the camera if you eventually upgraded to something like an XL2.

Mics that offer phantom as well as battery general have slighty better performance on phantom.

Both would be good mics - I think DSE mentioned he uses the 822 among others

As for it being a better choice than the Rode, they have different uses. At the price you mentioned beforethat you could get the Rode at, I'd get both. Like a good Boy Scout, Be Prepared!
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Old June 28th, 2006, 10:33 AM   #24
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Does the 825 have a AA battery option?
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Old June 28th, 2006, 10:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Largent
Does the 825 have a AA battery option?
According to the A/T website, the 825 operates on either internal battery or phantom while the 822 is internal battery only and they have bold type warnings against plugging into phantom as they say it's likely to damage it.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 10:33 PM   #26
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The AT825 costs 46.800 Yen compared to 21.800 Yen for the AT822 ( 1 USD = 116 Yen )

The option to get into using a mixer is tempting, must study up what that would imply though.
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Old July 4th, 2006, 04:27 AM   #27
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thank you very much everybody, specially Steve!

Since yesterday I am a proud owner of an AT822.

When comparing the audio of my mics, the GS400 onboard mic, the Panasonic VW-VMS2 and the Giant Squid Omnis I found it difficult to say which I liked best.

That difficulty is gone for good, and I am happy.

( No first tests of the Stereo Videomic yet? )
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Old July 21st, 2006, 11:34 PM   #28
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Would I harm the AT822 if I plug it into a recorder with 3,7V line-in power?

In the description of the AT822 it says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by panasonic site
Warning: The AT822 is designed for battery operation only. Do not attempt to use when phantom power is present. Possible damage to the microphone may result.
I would like to use my AT822 with my audio recorder which supplies 3,7Volt line-in power, preferably even with an additional battery box which supplies 9 Volt power.

Does anybody know:
Do I risk damage to the AT822 if I plug it into my recorder which supplies 3,7 Volt line-power?
Could it even still be save to plug it into a battery box which supplies 9 Volt power?
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