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Old December 8th, 2003, 02:20 PM   #106
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Here is a tip for those that have too much trouble shooting inverted... flip a little the lcd screen just after it turns to mirror mode, in that way you will be able to get a corrected image.
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Old December 8th, 2003, 04:54 PM   #107
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agus35

hey agus, things are really moving along here, way to go.

just thinking out loud here, but maybe a couple simple design changes ( inspired by looking at an actual mini35, size and shape ) could help solve a couple of problems.

it seems to me that the gg in the mini35 is most likely the size of a silver dollar ( say 4 to 6 cm in diameter ) and most likely set at a 45 degree angle. if this is the case then you would be taking a picture of the image created on the side of the gg that it hits, instead of through the gg, seems this would make a big difference, in sharpness and luminance. the gg's so small you could go with glass instead of plastic, this also would be an improvement. this would also explain the vortex thing with the mini35, which i think we could get rid of by vibrating the gg instead of spinning (hmmm, where'd i get that idea, think orbital sander ). you would need one more mirror ( top of box/ unit ) and a relay lens ( maybe this would take care of the flipped image, not sure ) i think this could still be done on the cheap, and the unit could end up being smaller, well at least narrower.

i could be way off, but for the sake of experiment, i think i might have to give this a go, nothing to lose.

how's this sound, am i way off?
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Old December 8th, 2003, 05:01 PM   #108
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here's another Agus35 shoot test...

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/Agus35maseratitest.wmv

you cannot put the GG 45, cause one side will be in a larger distance from the lens, what you can do is put a mirror 45 degres just like a SLR camera, and then you put the GG and then a pentaprims that correct the image...
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Old December 8th, 2003, 06:09 PM   #109
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(there must be a good reason why this wouldn't work)
What about just spinning the GG away and to the camera?

**POV of camera lens looking out**
[Motor]
|----------|
|---GG---|
|----------|
|----------|
[Motor]

**TOP View**
___
CAM|
CAM|
CAM|
CAM|
.|_|

__M__ //GG - from this view, GG spins clockwise (edges would be at 9 and 3 right now)

if you could spin the glass fast enough...would it create the same effect? maybe not...think of anything waving fast enough - it blurs and you cannot tell whether it is there or not at that instant...as long as you keep the shutter speed down? (which you would have to anyways because of light issues and trying to avoid seeing the grain on the glass. i am sure it is totally wrong...

another idea I had was to spin the glass from a wheel attached to the edge of the circle...think a polarizer...you can adjust it by turning it..but it stays in place the entire time right?
this might create the vortex effect people talk about with mini35...if someone could actually explain WHAT that is that would be great

if these ideas fail I am going to look into creating a sturdy agus35 of my own in the near future

congrats Agus!
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Old December 8th, 2003, 06:47 PM   #110
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seens too complicated and dont know if it would work, remember that the ideas is to keep it simple and make it simple to build, another thing is the vibration....

vibration is your worst enemy, cause it will be transfered to the camera and you will get bad footage. now... i thought of another way to make the whole box really small, but that will be in the commercial version... :)
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Old December 8th, 2003, 07:19 PM   #111
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Well I talked to my brother, who is a CNC machinist...and here is what he said:

"The camera rig doesn't look to hard to make after a little research on how it works. From what I can tell it is a rig that holds a video-camera in back of a special optical lens to record destorted images.It also looks full adjustable - I am guessing for different positions for what you would be capturing.

I think the best thing to do is get as much info as possible to see what and how the camera has to be mounted to the lense and what the adjustments do to the picture being captured.We can talk about it more over the phone or at christmas time. "

So I think if I can explain to him in non-video terms what I'm looking for, we can build a SOLID one out of metal and use REAL GG, and some rails.... for ALOT less than the real thing....

Cool!
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Old December 8th, 2003, 07:41 PM   #112
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Agus,
Everything with my adapter seems to be working out fine, except
that the image projected onto the cd is very dark. Is this normal and what can be done about it?
Thanks Mike Perkin
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Old December 8th, 2003, 08:35 PM   #113
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<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Perkin : Agus,
Everything with my adapter seems to be working out fine, except
that the image projected onto the cd is very dark. Is this normal and what can be done about it?
Thanks Mike Perkin -->>>

Be sure that the lens aperture is fully open, you will lose some light, like 5 steps, so indoor at night you will need to light up a lot... also check the max aperture size of the lens, mine is 1:2 and i get no vigneting and i have plenty of light... another thing is that the plastic GG will lose a lot of light as well.
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Old December 8th, 2003, 10:54 PM   #114
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Hi everyone, this is my first post here and this thread was the reason I joined!

I just started working on an Agus35 this evening but I'm concerned about wobble in the CD. I did my best to get it running smoothly when spun by the motor, but couldn't get it "flat" - the image tends to move. At slow speed it's very noticable and when spun up it makes things rather blurry. Has anyone else experienced this? Or even better, found a solution?

Also, there seems to be some pretty good gyroscopic force at play. My disc is spinning quite fast (the disc came loose from the motor once and took off across the room, bumping into the wall and staying upright and spinning for several more seconds). Has gyroscopic force been a problem for anyone?

And last but definately not least - has anyone attempted to properly backfocus their lense? I find it VERY handy when the focus marks on the lense match what's being focused on the film (or ground glass, in this case). It's a pretty precise thing (don't remeber the distance off hand) but I was wondering if anyone hand any tips on that.

So far it seems like a good project. I played around a bit with a 16mm lense and it was exciting! I have to go shopping for some 35mm lenses tomorrow :-)
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Old December 8th, 2003, 11:46 PM   #115
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<<<-- Originally posted by Ryan Henry : Hi everyone, this is my first post here and this thread was the reason I joined!

I just started working on an Agus35 this evening but I'm concerned about wobble in the CD. I did my best to get it running smoothly when spun by the motor, but couldn't get it "flat" - the image tends to move. At slow speed it's very noticable and when spun up it makes things rather blurry. Has anyone else experienced this? Or even better, found a solution?

Also, there seems to be some pretty good gyroscopic force at play. My disc is spinning quite fast (the disc came loose from the motor once and took off across the room, bumping into the wall and staying upright and spinning for several more seconds). Has gyroscopic force been a problem for anyone?

-->>>

Well about the cd coming loose and taking a spin through the room happened a lot to me :)... actually i broke 2 GG in the begining stages...

Ok, the problem is that you don have a good platform for the cd, so it comes and go... that is the hardest part, but seen like other people have been able to correct this with zero vibration using a cd player piece.

Congrats dude, and now that you have join there are also so many hot topics i this webpage that you will enjoy.
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Old December 9th, 2003, 01:35 AM   #116
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Given that ideas of manufacturing for profit or reward are starting to appear, it might be time for everyone to consider things legal such as intellectual property, patents, the possible infringement thereof and another perennial U.S. favorite, product liability.

The makers of the Mini35 and any existing competing products are probably not going to become injured if people home-brew by reverse design, their own versions for private use.

The makers of the Mini35 might even like the idea because videographers having tasted the fruits of a home-brew setup, might then hit a wall in terms of that last level of reliability/performance/perfection.

They might then buy the real thing when they need to perform consistently, meet deadlines and/or
manage to raise the price of the real thing.

However if a commercial entity evolves and eats into market share, you can be sure there will be
interest. If the point is reached where the costs of losing a patent infringement action become less than the lost revenue stream, then that interest can be expected to become active and interventional.

Stand-out key issues already are the number 35 in the applied context to describe the devices and the design concept. Though the Mini35 builder employs commonplace engineering and optical principles, the unique application and innovative combination of these, may constitute distinct intellectual property, sufficiently convincing for a court to decide to confer protection and relief.

If the Mini35 people are smart, they might pre-empt the marketplace with a strip version of their own product or a short-form kit of essential optical elements for home-brewers.
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Old December 9th, 2003, 02:29 AM   #117
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<==If the Mini35 people are smart, they might pre-empt the marketplace with a strip version of their own product or a short-form kit of essential optical elements for home-brewers. ==>

THat s the whole idea, to brake up the market and make it more accesible, just like the Ford T



Yeah,

we are all awared, and what is best, we will make it, and we will make also a comercial version, just like the chinese copy all and sell it cheap for everybody, we will make a homemade version of it.

I believe that the world is a like a big jungle, eat or be eaten, so in this case, we dont want to spend 12k - 16k in a mini 35 completed system, we want to spend 30$ bucks min... and many people are willing to spend 800 bucks in a comercial version, that let me mentioned, i never saw a mini35, neither knew or exactly know how it works... only the concept... that it is a camera obscura, and they have a spining GG, yeah... you can reach to that point and say "we need to shake or move this" as soon as you build the adapter and you see the grain...

So in conclusion, i will leave the germans to their bussines, which they are earning millions, me.... i will make it for free for all those who doesnt have money, and are poor indie filmakers like me... and for all others that want to spend an affordable price for a well build adapter... but dont have the money for a mini35, cause come on... lets be realistic, it cost a fortune !!!

Also, anyone no happy with this project should go and spend those 12-15k, cause either you like it or not.. the project is out, there are people building it, and more and more each day... just like the day that someone relase the first mp3, (well, thinking big...but) this is the same thing. Now with a camera less than 500bucks you will get DOF of 35mm cameras... which will be useful for those that in some future will want to film with real 35mm but cant afford the studies for it.. this is the perfect training... of course for free and with amazing video quality.

Thanks for everybody who support this project, and hey...this thread have been viewed more than 10,000 TIMES !!!...

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Old December 9th, 2003, 07:08 AM   #118
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I know where you are coming from and have no issue in bringing the product fairly to the masses who could never be in the marketplace for the Mini35 for the very reasons you state.

The open-source movement as exampled by the Linux community illustrates where it can go to the benefit of everyone and I guess this is the ideal you seek with the Agus35.

Like you, I like to experiment and innovate, some things work, some don't, - home made steadicam, window mount, camera crane which automatically tilts the camera at groundlevel and can be set to automatically find a preset height, all without added power, Super16 conversions of CP16 and Bolex H16RX5 motion film cameras.

One of the more morally bankrupt and unjust examples of patent exclusivity in recent times has been the attempt by pharmaceutical companies to effectively deny essential medications to people in the poorer countries by trying to block low-cost production of reverse engineered generic substitutes.

In relation to the Mini35 substitute, there are however some people who may be less protected in some countries from ruinous litigation than in others. They simply need to be mindful of this possibility and then proceed accordingly.

The open-source ideal, if this is what you are collectively embracing might best be protected by the Agus35 movement assuming some organised identity, registering and patenting its own innovations in all countries where there are builders before other players register them and lock you all out. Then make these innovations open to all to use on condition that furthur innovations built on the earlier work are themselves free to all designers. At the least, through company law in many countries, this might protect individuals from suit. The Linux open-source community model might be a good one to study.
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Old December 9th, 2003, 10:35 AM   #119
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How to mount it all to the camera:

Tape is a good ally, as well as hot glue, if dont try to build a lens mount, copy the shape and lock system from the SLR camera. then make a metal skeleton (you can use metal rods, or just a metal piece) that connects the adapter to the tripod hole of your dv camera.
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