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Old January 8th, 2004, 01:02 PM   #1
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Agus35 & others, FLIPPING PROBLEM SOLVED!!

I have an idea to suggest, which may over come many of the problems that have arisen from attempts to produce an alternative to the P+S technic Mini35mm adapter (namely The agus35 and other variants)

Here is my solution:

Instead of using a camcorder to cature a projection of a 35mm lens why not use a dedicated high resolution MEDICAL CAMERA.

After some searching i have found a camera that will wotk perfectley for the proposed soloution:

http://www.sony-products-for-medical...33-camera.html

This medical camera is a 1/3" X 3CCD hi res camera which is designed to be fitted to micrscopes

Thus this can be fitted into any poject box such as the agus35 or the Static soloution and it can be mounted upside down

So NO FLIPPING IS required and the camera has a DV out (firewire) so all you need to do is attach to a laptop and you a have a direct to disk hi res camcorder with built in NLE and the ability to capture in true 35mm Imageray.

Any comments to this suggestion is highly welcome.
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Old January 8th, 2004, 01:23 PM   #2
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It almost looks as though you need to buy it with the control
unit. It claims to even support frame mode.

The following comments:

1) price (probably high)

2) availability (where to get)

3) no recording device (need to bring a laptop for example)

4) power?
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Old January 8th, 2004, 01:37 PM   #3
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1) $4,150

2) BH PhotoVideo (but it's listed as 'Out of Stock')

3) But you could get it into tight spaces and run a cable to the laptop

4) Looks like it requires AC, if only it could take power through the firewire.

Good idea though, I wonder if there is a cheaper version that's good quality out there.

With this setup you could have 35mm DOF in a compact package that records directly to disk and has manual controls! That would be amazing for some applications.

Cheers,
Huey
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Old January 8th, 2004, 02:06 PM   #4
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I think you can connect it too any VTR that has firewire support so you dont need to use a laptop, and if you want to run it off batteries use an inverter they are very cheap and thery allow 12v DV to 240,50Hz AC conversion (sorry i'm in the UK i'm sure you have one for American voltages) check out :

http://www.maplin.co.uk/


and seach for " Invertors " they came in all ranges of powers from 150W to 1KW

so you dont need to use a laptop or even need any mains,

and i think since its DV being streamed from the camera surley you can connect it to a cheap MiniDV camera and use it as a VTR?

Also one other thing, since it is designed for closeup (being connected to microscopes)
it would be better suited than a camcoder to capture a projected image on a Ground glass, if the GG is static it would save on a lot of space.
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Old January 8th, 2004, 02:25 PM   #5
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Old January 8th, 2004, 02:36 PM   #6
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HA ha, found another potential camera,

This one only needs 12V DC so no mains inverter required, and its has s-video out as well as BNC type video connector, so you could connect it too a miniDV that allows compsoite video signal in

See : http://rock2000.com/ccd/gpkr222.htm

and there is no reason why you cant mount this upside down


any way theses are some of the specs :


1/2" interline transfer CCD with 768 (H) x 494(V) pixels
480-line horizontal resolution
Minimum scene illumination of 3 lux at F1.4
Signal-to-noise ratio of 50dB
Digital signal processing circuit enables excellent picture quality and advanced functions
A variety of advanced light control functions: --Electronic Light Control (ELC) and Backlight Compensation (BLC)
C or CS-mount selectable
S-VHS (Y/C) & Standard NTSC Composite output
Selectable aperture level
Auto Gain Control
12 Volt DC operation
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Old January 8th, 2004, 03:21 PM   #7
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upside down camera

i think that the original agus35 idea was NOT about - how to invert the image with the NEW camera which you must buy, but how to resolve problem in simple, yet cheap way.

i think that your idea Anhar, may sound mor like "another aproach to flipped image" or something like that, but not "problem solved". problem is solved when you find a proper solution with AGUS35 adapter, or some smart solution near by, but not the new camera.
one can say, ok. i have my dv camera, and i can turn it upside dawn also... what is the problem with it.
i will buy small monitor as you will do, and i'm ok. without a new camera. and disks or whatever media to record the picture and sound.
just a thought.

all the best,

keep agusing!
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Old January 8th, 2004, 04:18 PM   #8
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The Agus35 is a good start, but this idea was not just for the agus35, is more about the principle of it.

Even the Mini35 (P+S tecnik) has to invert the image hence light loss etc.. buy reducing this without the need for external monitors and or post flipping. there are many reasons to do it this way.

Yes you are right you COULD just flip your camcorder upside down but that would make all your controls the wrong way and your camcorder was not designed in that fashion.

Using these cameras i.e. medical/security cameras has ceratin features which are very pleasing to the whole aspect of recording a projection on a GG.

I'm just saying there may be a better solution to recording a projection and a 'normal' camcorder may not be the best solution, as with the medical/security cameras also have the advantage of not needing to flip the projection image.

At the ed of the day it is about what is it that you want to achieve?

What i'm after (like many others) is Towards a Film look with DV
(And in my mind right know this seems a good idea)

Maybe a should just start calling this project DIGITAL35 :-)
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Old January 8th, 2004, 05:22 PM   #9
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way to think "outside of the box" anhar. very interesting idea.
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Old January 8th, 2004, 05:37 PM   #10
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There are plenty of camera heads intended for production use (not medical or security) with a wide range of prices that would do this, including native 16:9 2/3" 3-ccd heads. The relay lens between the holographic diffuser (because that looks like the way to go) and the ccd could be an off-the shelf copy lens - very high quality, very fast ones are available.

It should be no surprise that it has already been considered by many people. However, the lack of camera functionality makes it unappealing to me. I believe that using a good upside-down LCD monitor or separate electronic viewfinder is a much better approach if you don't want optical image inversion.

Best,
Helen
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Old January 8th, 2004, 07:00 PM   #11
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While a bit expensive, this is a really interesting idea, and I'll definitely be remembering this for later.
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Old January 9th, 2004, 08:53 AM   #12
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I've found another device its a VTR that would is PERFECT for this idea

Its the Panasonic AG-DV1 DC its a DV recorder with built in flip out LCD basically its the back end of the DVX100 chopped off!!

It accepts Y/C in/out, analogue audio in/out, microphone in, and composite siganl.

As well as DV in (firewire) so this can be connected to the above mentioned Secuirty OR medical cam to make a complete camcorder it, the size is small it is portabke runs off standard camcorder batteries and accepts both digital video signals as well as analogue signals.

Any way check out these site :
http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/_...OpenItemID=111
http://www.ebizasialink.com/e-StoreF...index.asp?pg=2

By the way [Helen] the point not using monitors (which i suggested back in the agus thread allthough others may well have mentioned it and thought about it too) is that you still need to flip the video in post at least this way you dont (a) need any external monitors (b) no futher post manipulation

As for the lack of camcoder features, what features would you miss the most?

I think Scott Billups (from pixel monger) has done similar things by making his own camcorder although not using it to record a projection.

I thing the main advantage with this idea is that a medical cam is DESIGNED to be coupled to other optical instraments such as microscopes and capture that picture so it would (i assume) do a better job at capturing a projection from a GG than a camcorder could add to this that its compact and small and has no problem bieng mounted upside down.

Now as for the price i understand that this is a very expensive way to do this, BUT lets throw some figures:

How much does that P+S cost ? about 8K right? and thats not includeing the lens and camcorder so it you can make a system under that price without lens then surely thats got to be a good thing?

I have had a look at many of the footage completed from the agus35 AND others and without trying to offend any one (please do not take this in the wrong manor) i dislike the quality and it seems there is still some hotspots and other image defects, however i do understand that it was done with REALLY inexpensive materials hence ir has too be highly commended (which i do)

Too be honest P+S mini35 have open the floodgates for Indie film makers but the price is not fair.

And Agus showed us what some of us was thinking, that it is not that a expensive to replicate the principle.

I think it may very well be possible to build a system that is better than the P+S mini35 adapter

Anway Guys i thank you for your comments, i will be doing some more reseach on this idea and hopefully may be able to persude my university to fund this! ( have to built an engineering project for my last year OK so its more electronics then mechanical but i suppose the support backets count ;-) )

I may well have the first Digital 35 Camera i always dreamed of!!
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Old January 10th, 2004, 08:36 AM   #13
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I already brought this up in the Static 35mm thread. But you've still got an issue. Even if you mount the camera upside down you still need to digitally flip the image horizontally. Why do the job if you're only going to do it half way. Especially at a price that nears that of a mini35.
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Old January 10th, 2004, 08:37 AM   #14
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The thing about the lens is a non-issue since you will also not
have a lens for your camera either. So this version and the P+S
version both don't have the lens. If you have a 35mm still lens
I do believe you can mount this to the P+S adapter as well.

Costs. The P+S adapter is indeed around 8K, but you can find
it cheaper second hand and you can just RENT It for the shooting
days you need.

Your solution is already costing $5649,95, that doesn't include
the RODS and other bits, pieces to hook everything up (including
a nice system to power the whole device) and not to mention
the WHOLE assembly of the CD etc. as well (which takes a lot
of time to build thusfar).

ALL of this you WILL get with the P+S and it only costs $2350
more (new). Yes, you will need a camera, but most people here
do already. And you get warranty (on the WHOLE system) and
a *professional* system that you know is going to work (well).

I'm not saying yours isn't a solution either, it was a nifty thought
(I've wondered such thing before as well in regard to shooting
miniatures). I just wanted to point out there is a whole lot more
to think about when doing such a thing yourself and you are
missing components that P+S includes in the package.

I think it is a bit of a gamble, especially considering the high price
and at this moment in time it is not garantueed to work or what
kind of picture such a camera would give (quality wise)!

Things you would be missing would include shutter (I think),
gain controls, zebra stripes / light metering etc. etc.

Iris and zoom control (if the lens has it) will be on the lens.
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Old January 11th, 2004, 02:28 PM   #15
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You guys are right this is an expensive method at the moment,
however i'm not suggesting that the cameras i have pointed out be the only ones to use i'm sure there are plenty of cameras out there that might just fit the bill, and if you use a latop you can save on the cost of a poratable VTR, That assuming you have a capable laptop.
But the laptop will produce other issues, i.e no good for handheld work.

But i still believe that a medical cam would be able to capture the projection image better than a normal camcorder obviously i cant prove this, then again i could be wrong.


About the image orinatation on thinking Mike Tesh is correct about this.but surely flipping a monitor upside down would alos mean that your picture is still right to left?

Once again thanking you guys for your invauluable input.
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