4:4:4 12-bit Uncompressed DVX100

[Juan P. Pertierra]

The TIFF frames are uploaded, at the same link as before:

http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~pertierr/output.zip

[Jason Rodriguez]

<<<-- Originally posted by Juan P. Pertierra : Can someone check if there is any 10-bit or 12-bit format that is handled by FCP? Maybe the DPX format works?-->>>

No, the only 10-bit formats that FCP supports are the 10-bit Quicktime Codecs. It also doesn't support frame sequences, those must be passed through Quicktime Pro to be made into a Quicktime movie file. FCP isn't frame-sequence friendly :-(

But of course you could use the timeline in something like combustion if you really need that type of support, and then render out quicktimes for editing in FCP.

Or with Shake you could do a match-frame edit from an offline.

There are ways around the DPX/16-bit Tiff problem in FCP.

[Richard Mellor]

Hi everyone -

I think we are the future of image acquisition! The new modular camera will allow us the lenses of our choice, the chips of our choice (CCD, CMOS), raw capture, and eventual output to the codec of our choice.

All this with repair and upgrade similar to a PC.

This is a link to what that camera will look like: http://www.kinetta.com/home.php

[Juan P. Pertierra]

In playing around with the green speckles, i decided to post a DV-RAW comparison that's more fair. The DV frame is clean in this one, and corresponds to the RAW frame within 24 frames. Note that i was playing around and there is some noise in the green channel that is not obvious to the eye, so the RAW frame is handicapped. :) Also, totally uncorrected...

http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~pertierr/DVComp2_DV.tif
http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~pertierr/DVComp2_RAW.tif

[Juan P. Pertierra]

I am adding some functionality to the PGA design for the prototype, does anyone here have the SMPTE SDI specifications?

Also, there definitely is a way to preview the raw material on the on-board LCD, but so far the only way i've figured it out is by means of modifying the camera...the best option is still a an output of some sort. The on-board viewfinder is still useful but it will clip at a lower luminosity than the RAW footage.

I've also added an LCD screen to the device, along with menu controls to adjust options such as RGB alignment, etc, and possibly compression.

Right off the bat I can implement some simple non-desctructive compression like RLE or maybe LZW if the PGA runs fast enough. Anyone know if the 50Mpbs DV(DVCPRO50?) specs are available somewhere?

Juan

[Edon Rizvanolli]

Hi Juan and everyone else,

here is one link with info's on DV50 and the other formats:

http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-tech.html

I hope it is helpfull.

[Randall Larsen]

Juan,


SDI SMPTE 292M (10bit at 1.5Gb/s) (1) F BNC

Standard Definition:
SDI SMPTE 259M (10bit at 270Mb/s) 8 bit 143 MBS

Dual HD SDI SMPTE 292 is sometimes used with sony 950 camera to output to AJA KONA2 or SONY's 444 RGB HD recorder SR.

The full spec for SD SDI is available for purchase on the SMPTE site:

http://smpte.org/smpte_store/standar...&stdtype=smpte

under standards by number:

SMPTE 259M-1997 Television - 10-Bit 4:2:2 Component and 4fsc Composite Digital Signals - Serial Digital Interface
$24.00 - Purchase this Document

Your university library might have the SMPTE cdrom or SMPTE
journal 1997 when this was published.

I have Poynton's Technical intro to Digital Video on page 249
he gives a brief description:

4:2:2 a serial composite interface uses TRS timing reference sequence to achieve sync rather than digitized analog sync. (same as ITU-656).

The serial interfaces use ECL levels, 75ohm impedence, BNC connectors and coax (we knew that).

I've manually added the 0001's to the Tif download files. It plays back nicely in fcheck. I was able to uprezz to 720P with good results although the speckles are annoying.

Richard Mellor:

I've been to the kinetta site. Jeff Kreines has got a good idea and some expert help. There are some unanswered questions though.

The 35mm lens does not have the same Depth of Field and focal length characteristics with an 2/3" Altasens sensor. If Kreines could get the Dalsa 35mm sized sensor it might work!

Its a single chip camera which may have advantages in avoiding the chromatic aberration inherent in sony's F-950 prism block.
But avoiding the prism block doesn't make 35mm lenses any more usable since the image size at 2/3" is wrong. I don't see Kreines
using a field lens or the PhotoTeknica ground glass solution!

I am not convinced a single chip camera can get the depth of modulation and the color possible from 3-chips. Although the argument that Digital still cameras are single chip has some weight.

Kreines capture media has not been described is he using solid state flash memory? What compression scheme? Has any footage shot with the camera been seen? It looks like vaporware to me!

Nick H:

Just a guess but I suspect 16:9 might require 30% more bandwidth.

HD requires 75MHZ clock for 16bit output. Juan's clock is
20MHZ I believe. His capture board won't go any higher so
he may have difficulty capturing 16:9. However the plan is to
build a firewire interface eliminating the necessity of a capture board.

I suspect unsqueezed 16:9 might require 26MHZ clock. However,
I just remembered that the way most dual systems work is by
cropping the chip for 16:9 so maybe the bandwidth is about the same?

A better frame grabber would be the Matrox Helios XCL single
Full 12 bit camera-link interface running at up to 280MHz.

see:

http://matrox.com/imaging

[Randall Larsen]

Is there a way to run photoshop in a batch mode. I know photoshop was originally designed by an ILMer for film work. Have the batch features been left out on purpose?

A quick and dirty color correction is just to run Equalize. The auto level, auto balance etc. don't seem to do the trick. Don't know if I would want to hand time all my footage frame by frame!

Is FCP's color correction adequate to correct Juan's tif files?
Of course we have to get the files into FCP using 10 bit DVPRO50?

I think after effects now accepts 16bit color files. Of course shake can handle 32bit floating point color files.

I agee it would be nice to build some level/color correction into the PGA for monitoring purposes.

If it exists a very fast dsp setup might make real time uprezzing possible. This could cost big bucks though.

[Randall Larsen]

Juan and listmembers,

Any news on a ballpark price for the mod? All we really need is
firewire 800 out (monitoring the raw output would be nice though).

I talked to JVC the list price on their new HD POV camera is $19,995 so it will eventually carry a street price of 18,000K or less w/o lens. She didn't know whether the camera would come with a raw or a dual SMPTE 292 out. The are pushing the new HDV as is Sony. The idea is to partition the market into low end, mid range and high end. Sony would like to sell the high end
their HD SR recorder. However, JVC sees that the market will eventually go to Hard disk, solid-state, or optical.

Tape will continue as a studio and archiving medium for a while.

If a DXC100 can get usuable images for film transfer, Juan has
just made the low end equivalent to (in many respects) the
high end.

[Juan P. Pertierra]

I'm looking at that right now. Adding a digital out such as SDI ~should~ not add anything to the price, but an analog out might add just a tad.

What's the consensus on this? Do we need a monitor out and what kind is best? I'd rather implement just one thing that everyone is going to use. S-video out?

It is clear by now that to really adjust the camera for a specific shot you need to view the RAW output, and the DV viewfinder/LCD only works for framing, and maybe focusing.

[Randall Larsen]

Juan,

Once the camera is tested we could rate the sensor like film stock.

The DP can use a light meter to predict what the picture can be printed to.

Are you saying we need monitoring to decide what ND filter to apply. Perhaps we need a daylight 85B filter to precorrect color?

Perhaps we need to have many different NDs or set the iris manually from a light meter reading?

Once the peformance of the chip is known, in theory the built in monitoring in the DVX could be adjusted to roughly correspond.

I see the issue of iris and ND settings as something that won't vary much the operating characteristics of the camera are known.

Now some DPS and users like us might want to paint the color on the set. RAW files are supposed to make different looks possible in post. You don't want to overcorrect on the set leaving yourself no options in post! There have to be default settings at different light levels. Gamma etc should be applied in POST!

Having said this. Filter effects are hard to predict. Will the image be too soft with a pro-mist filter? Unless you have a real HD monitor on the set its hard to tell! Its also hard to even tell if the camera is in focus for HD without an HD monitor.

Will we be getting better than the rate 500 horizontal tv lines
of resolution out of the camera? If so you need a good monitor to even focus!

[Jeff Donald]

Is there a way to run photoshop in a batch mode. I know photoshop was originally designed by an ILMer for film work. Have the batch features been left out on purpose?

Randall, Photoshop was written by Thomas Knoll. His brother John now works for ILM.

You can create actions or droplets to do batch processing in Photoshop.

[Jason Rodriguez]

How can you monitor the ouput of the RAW files at 12-bits on an 8-bit monitor without some form of LUT? Is monitoring really that big of a deal, especially when you know that if you're getting a good image on the camera's built-in LCD (no crazy clipping), that you're getting great highlight detail on the RAW ouput? Just don't clip too much on the LCD and you're fine. Think of the RAW files as added headroom like 24-bit audio has over 16-bit audio.

Actually if anything is added, I think the suggestion of an "up-rezzing" chip is a wonderful idea. Actually the Varicam (PanasonicHD) only records on tape a image with a horizontal resolution of 960 pixels, not too much more than what Juan has with the DVX100 mod. So you could choose between standard RAW ouput and an uprezzed RAW ouput.

[Jeff Donald]

The RAW convertor should do the up-rezzing, to take advantage of the more powerful CPU and better algorithms.

[Juan P. Pertierra]

I agree with Jeff, I think by all means the uprezzing should be done on the PC, and the RAW SD output should be kept as the original or 'negative'.

I'm no expert in color correction, but i beleive all color correction should be done on the SD original and then it should be up-rezzed. up-rezzing creates some artifacts whch i beleive will be amplified if it is color corrected afterwards.

I might be wrong, any experience with this?

Juan