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Old December 15th, 2003, 11:51 PM   #16
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True, lots & lots of limitations but remember, there are some bonusus. Film Res (2K or 4K) resolution at Hi8 prices. 35mm glass, sharpness and DOF.

It's not what you would want to shoot dialog heavy comedies but for experimental and expressive "art" pieces, it's an intriguing possibility.

And I'm financially limited. And limitation is a great movitator for creativity.
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Old December 16th, 2003, 02:59 AM   #17
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Sorry Stephen, I can't view the file (on a mac, I've tried installing WM and VLC player, neither would open the file). The results you get are dependent on which mode you're using in Twixtor (Blend mode is all I can remember at the moment, there are a few others that are a bit more render-intensive). And obviously, the more fps you have going into the software (the more pictures you shoot) the smoother your motion will be.

I believe the clip that Adrian posted didn't utilize any time remapping plug-ins, it was basically done using Quicktime's own framerate conversion (similar to AE's posterize time), so if that's more of the look you're going for (choppier), try a test by creating a comp at 29.97 or 25fps (NTSC or PAL), and apply posterize time to the frame rate that suits you. Obviously, you wouldn't be creating any new frames with this technique (basically duping existing frames to the extended frame rate), but it might be a look/style you could use as well along side the results you're getting with Twixtor. Something to juxtapose, perhaps.
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Old December 16th, 2003, 10:53 AM   #18
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Michael:

Sorry it won't view. It's a Windows Media 9 file - thought the Mac WM could play those. What error do you get?
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Old December 16th, 2003, 11:04 AM   #19
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It plays on my Mac with Microsoft WMP 9. It can be downloaded from Microsofts site and Version Tracker.
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Old December 18th, 2003, 10:43 AM   #20
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Only thing about exporting DV footage at a higher frame rate and then reimporting it to retime is that the motion in the frame is spatially accurate (or something like that).

ie. the linearity is still there, as opposed to capturing with an SLR, in which case you would introduce other combined factors such as camera movement + unnatural subject movement (if the subject acts like a stop-motion character) + frames captured at different intervals (thus removing the even spacing of the motions).

I have been thinking of something similar to this as well.

Interesting thread!!


,Frank
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Old December 18th, 2003, 10:58 AM   #21
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Thought I'd post a couple of links of other people who have built
their own devices to capture images with, because it is interesting
to see what can be done with around-the-house items.

These guys are capturing images with flatbed scanners.
I know this isn't fast enough, obviously, to capture a movie
with (in real time, anyway), but maybe they'll generate some
ideas.

http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-demo-scanner-cam.html

http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/scanner.html

,Frank
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Old December 18th, 2003, 11:11 AM   #22
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Interesting stuff. I've suggested to Chris Hurd that we create an "alternative imagery" forum as the ideas are spreading.
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Old February 3rd, 2004, 02:18 AM   #23
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Prepare to be amazed - SLR Motordrive first test

It's very late and I've just finished rendering, so excuse the fogginess, but this is very exciting...

See this thread for background...

After obtaining a Elan 7e and 3 primes and re-learning 35mm still (it's been about 12 years since I shot 35mm still or film of anykind), I was ready to hastily shoot one 36 exposure roll.

So, what we have here is a Elan 7e on a table tripod, 36 frames expose at approx 3.5 fps via built-in Elan motordrive.

Scanned on my Epson 2450 Perfection, roughly aligned due to scanner error and trimmed to HD rez, desaturated and put in order.

Brought into After Effects 6 as Photoshop sequence, interpret footage as 3fps. Use Twixtor standard in 24fps timeline which gives 12 seconds.

Thus 36 frames are turned into 216 frames. Rendered as 1920X1080 quicktime, animation compressor. Brought into Vegas 4 and rendered out as WM9 HD 24p 720 file.

Download here - it's about 8 MB and you will Windows Media 9 capable player and reasonably fast CPU to play.

I'm excited. I was getting discouraged as scanning manually and relearning old stuff and this new stuff was difficult, but damn, it works.

Using Twixtor Pro and/or ReTimer HD, better footage, more accurate scanning method, and I think the results will be even more stunning.

I'm going to research scanning services vs. high-end scanner.

Obviously, this technique has very limited use (takes are limited, sound sync not really possible), but for my short, experimental films that most people see projected on large screens, it rocks.
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Old February 3rd, 2004, 09:52 AM   #24
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Wow! Nice footage!

I have thought about the possiblility of doing something like this, and your approach is pretty much how I invisioned it. I get the jerky artifacts problem a lot with Twixtor, and have found that I get the best results with 'Detect conflicting motion' checked, motion vectors set to 'Best', and Motion Sensitivity set below 100% (more like 80% or lower, depending on the spacing of the motion). Also, if you have the Pro version, you can use masks, but that is painstaking. Actually, if you don't use motion vectors, you won't have that jerking problem, but then you'll have blended, soft & ghosty frames.

This would be very practical for shooting, say, only background footage (like with lots of trees, etc), because I think that's where you can really tell whether or not it's DV or film - on those small details.

I have done something similar with a single scanned 35mm picture with grain applied to it, and it was ok. However, with multiple stills blended in Twixtor you can get the swaying of trees, motion of water, etc, and have all that high detail.

Thanks for posting this!

,Frank
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Old February 3rd, 2004, 12:57 PM   #25
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Frank:

I figured someone must have had the same idea though I couldn't find anyone who had posted results anywhere.

Glad you liked it. I kind of like the motion artifacts, I reduced them somewhat for this clip, but by sliding the frames around you can get a real underwater, mirage kind of look.

I agree that its may have all sort of interesting uses, including background plates, more natural 3D textures etc.

The wildest part is that the file I posted is a highly compressed Windows Media that was cropped by over 50% before compression to make HD frame size. The original scans were at 2400 dpi, so the original images are 3064 X 1960 pixels at 48-bit color depth.

I could output this directly as 2K or even 4K (with a suitable scan) film files and print to 35mm motion picture film, probably pretty cheaply.

I've downloaded the ReTimer plugin demo, so I'm going to render a comparison with it to see which I want to purchase. I've contacted both companies about some kind of "pioneer" discount...

I'll post the ReTimer clip in the next couple of days.
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Old February 3rd, 2004, 01:04 PM   #26
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Yeah, with a scanner at that resolution, you can get some nice images!

I have had experience with ReTimer as well. Be prepared for a noticeably longer render time. They do have an intuitive motion mask tool that comes with ReTimer which allows you to paint different parts of the images shades of green and red to show ReTimer which direction the elements in the image are going. I have gotten some excellent results with this. Really nice plugin.
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Old February 3rd, 2004, 01:45 PM   #27
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I'm having trouble with ReTimer. At standard settings outlined in documentation, I end up with Ghosting and very jerky motion.

Do you have to use the motion mask to get good results?
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Old February 3rd, 2004, 01:52 PM   #28
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Very Interesting Stephen

Now all you need is a big back like they use on the high school yearbook shoots and away you go.
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Old February 3rd, 2004, 01:59 PM   #29
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I actually considered going this way but my only options were an old Nikon F3 or Canon A1 or Olympus OM series. These big backs are very hard to find - I could only find the Nikon model which is a collector't item and goes for over $800.

Plus, you have to find the custom loader and load bulk film and then no one develops these babies anymore that I'm aware of.

Medium format cameras offer the option (the school yearbook thing), but not with motordrives capable of at least 3-4 fps. Not that I could find.

Supposedly DX encoding in modern cams support 72 exposure roles and Minolta had some kind of 100 exposure role for some Maxxum models, but I couldn't find much info.

If this pans out, I've toyed around with what it would take to build a custom loader that would take regular bulk film, but it may just be too complicated.

Eventually, I hope a digital still camera can shoot at 4fps continously (miniRAID :) but
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Old February 3rd, 2004, 02:14 PM   #30
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There are possible ways aroung this, as i am working on a similar idea/project.
Nikon D1-D10 can transfer files wirelessly to a computer and frame rate I belive is dependent on resolution of image.

Also check out the Kodak cams too...

These are expensive though.
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