4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Jason Rodriguez · September 9th, 2004, 11:19 AM

Hey Obin,

If you use Sheer without recording a Log instead of Linear signal, then you're loosing a very important 2-bits of information (either in the highlights or the shadows-both are bad).

I'd suggest that if you really want Sheer (which is a good thing), that you look into a 10-bit log format, not linear format, which again will clip information, especially from the Altasens.

I'll download the new Sheer when I get home and see what I can do. It may not be till Sunday that I can play around though because I have a meeting with the producer this weekend of a film shoot coming up, and then auditions are Tomorrow and Saturday. Hope the delay isn't too much for you.

BTW, Wayne, I'm slightly skeptical of Sumix, just because it seems as though their QA isn't quite all there, and also the Altasens over firewire800 is going to be missing a lot of bits somewhere along the line. Not quite sure how you're going to get a fast enough frame-rate to get rid of that rolling shutter problem and still maintain a high bit-depth. Might be good for doco cameras, but I'm hoping for something more that can be used for feature-quality films and VFX (greenscreen/slow-motion).

Also Steve, I noticed in the brochure that you can record with the Altasens as low as 4fps? Will that be true for the SI-1920 with the EPIX framegrabber?

Thanks again everyone.

Steve Nordhauser · September 9th, 2004, 11:31 AM

Jason:
Slow is easier than fast. In a free running mode, our programmable pixel clock can go down to 20MHz, but on the Altasens dual tap that is two pixels. So, 50ns x 2.1Mpix is 9.5 fps. Slower free running might be possible - I will have to check to see if there is something else going on. You can always use it in single shot mode where each frame is requested from software. The gotcha is that since it is always integrating, it takes two read cycles to get a good frame - the first clears the sensor of its current integration and the second is a good read.

The XCAP software lets you record every 'Nth' frames which is nice for time lapse. I believe this free runs the camera and just stores certain frames.

Obin Olson · September 9th, 2004, 12:10 PM

FIne Jason..do it as soon as you can !

thanks!

Wayne Morellini · September 9th, 2004, 12:19 PM

Jason, thats why I quoted Sumix's "plans", I'm a little skeptical too, the level of sophistication they are aiming for is high, but the proof is in the pudding and Ill wait to see if they deliver. I can understand it from the Asian business perspective: keep quiet, take advantage of the opportunity and do the work, then attack the market. If that is their plan then we might be in store for something with their second round cameras. As long as they have good real cinematographers, and videographers to help in the design and beta test, they should not do too badly. If they are as good as their plans, it is likely they are reading everything here, to learn more and improve their product.

They are making all the right noises (but proof is in the pudding again). FirewireB is supposed to deliver 100MB/s (single line same as Gigabit Ethernet throughput). They are aiming for a compressed camera, in the second round of releases, which is quiet sophisticated. That would require on camera processing, and memory buffering. But it would be simple for them to build up to this by first implementing memory buffering to allow high shutter rates and maximising bus traffic, pixel packing, and the log gamma curve (they were talking about) in the first release camera. With all these groups doing parallel projects it worries me. Even I was thinking of doing one next year.

By the way Jason, what is "BTW", and what did you mean by "QA" (Question and answers?).

Now to bed.

Jason Rodriguez · September 9th, 2004, 12:26 PM

BTW- By the way

QA- Quality Assurance

Still not sure about FirewireB if we're needing 64-bit frame-grabbers for the Altasens. They're going to have to clip bits somewhere. In other words, you're not going to get a high-speed camera.

Wayne Morellini · September 9th, 2004, 12:41 PM

OK, I get you, QA hit me a bit out of left field, thats why I didn't catch on to it. I see what you mean, I haven't heard any negative report of their QA yet, have you?

Yes, your right, anything above standard frame rates, for slow motion capture, will require much more than one uncompressed Firewireb.

I'll wait and see what happens.

Jason Rodriguez · September 9th, 2004, 07:25 PM

Obin, I can't find the SheerVideo beta download. Wasn't it on the website, or do I have to personally e-mail them?

Obin Olson · September 10th, 2004, 07:02 PM

http://www.dv3productions.com/pub/

Jason you will find the demo in that folder for mac os X

has any one seen this chip:

http://www.fast-vision.com/cameras/P...salessheet.pdf

it's global shutter and 1inch in size..what are the down sides on this one one? anyone?

WOW I am impressed..just came back from the screening of the VariCam footage that DuArt fixed the colors/contrast on..looks really really good..I would shoot a feature on that camera EVEN with the compression and 8bit! if that looked that good think what 1080p 12bit is going to look like!

Steve, shipping update on the Altasens?

Anders Holck Petersen · September 10th, 2004, 10:48 PM

64 bit Board + f-mount camera w.Micron MT9M413 CMOS Sensor+XCAP soft:
http://www.epixinc.com/products/pixci_cl3sd.htm

= $15,430.00

test mpeg:
http://www.epixinc.com/images/1sec1000fps.mpg

Jason Rodriguez · September 10th, 2004, 11:25 PM

Hey Obin,

Do you have a current license for SheerVideo? Seems like the beta wants an already valid SheerVideo license to work correctly.

Obin Olson · September 11th, 2004, 09:07 AM

that is not a beta jason but a demo..do you need a code to unlock the demo or jsut to un-zip it?

Jason Rodriguez · September 11th, 2004, 10:06 AM

Okay Obin,

I'll see what happens here, but I have auditions to run in an hour, so I won't be able to play around with this again till later today or tomorrow.

Typically though I'm assuming that you only get so many "trys", especially on my machine where I've "tried" the program before.

Obin Olson · September 11th, 2004, 11:34 AM

I think i'ts just a watermark not a limited number use demo

I need some feedback Jason..we are looking at save formats now and I need to know how well the sheervideo works for you ;)

would anyone care for a frame or 2 in the RAW format we have going? I would like to know the Rob project could transcode this RAW file yet...

Jason Rodriguez · September 12th, 2004, 07:41 PM

I'm really sorry Obin, but there must be something that I'm doing wrong, and I'm really not sure because I've done this type of thing many times before (installing Quicktime Components). Quicktime won't play any of my SheerVideo movies.

Also at this point in time I can't re-install my system to try and get a fresh install for Sheer to work on, so that it hasn't see that it's been installed before.

Obin Olson · September 12th, 2004, 07:50 PM

Does anyone else on the list have a mac for editing?

I need help on this asap if anyone can that would be really great

We now have CIneLink working and are working on save formats and re-doing the preview on-screen for color instead of the SDK black&white and using our own code for preview/disk write

September 9th, 2004, 11:31 AM	#1637
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Jason: Slow is easier than fast. In a free running mode, our programmable pixel clock can go down to 20MHz, but on the Altasens dual tap that is two pixels. So, 50ns x 2.1Mpix is 9.5 fps. Slower free running might be possible - I will have to check to see if there is something else going on. You can always use it in single shot mode where each frame is requested from software. The gotcha is that since it is always integrating, it takes two read cycles to get a good frame - the first clears the sensor of its current integration and the second is a good read. The XCAP software lets you record every 'Nth' frames which is nice for time lapse. I believe this free runs the camera and just stores certain frames. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

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September 9th, 2004, 11:19 AM	#1636
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hey Obin, If you use Sheer without recording a Log instead of Linear signal, then you're loosing a very important 2-bits of information (either in the highlights or the shadows-both are bad). I'd suggest that if you really want Sheer (which is a good thing), that you look into a 10-bit log format, not linear format, which again will clip information, especially from the Altasens. I'll download the new Sheer when I get home and see what I can do. It may not be till Sunday that I can play around though because I have a meeting with the producer this weekend of a film shoot coming up, and then auditions are Tomorrow and Saturday. Hope the delay isn't too much for you. BTW, Wayne, I'm slightly skeptical of Sumix, just because it seems as though their QA isn't quite all there, and also the Altasens over firewire800 is going to be missing a lot of bits somewhere along the line. Not quite sure how you're going to get a fast enough frame-rate to get rid of that rolling shutter problem and still maintain a high bit-depth. Might be good for doco cameras, but I'm hoping for something more that can be used for feature-quality films and VFX (greenscreen/slow-motion). Also Steve, I noticed in the brochure that you can record with the Altasens as low as 4fps? Will that be true for the SI-1920 with the EPIX framegrabber? Thanks again everyone.

September 9th, 2004, 12:10 PM	#1638
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	FIne Jason..do it as soon as you can ! thanks!

September 9th, 2004, 12:19 PM	#1639
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Jason, thats why I quoted Sumix's "plans", I'm a little skeptical too, the level of sophistication they are aiming for is high, but the proof is in the pudding and Ill wait to see if they deliver. I can understand it from the Asian business perspective: keep quiet, take advantage of the opportunity and do the work, then attack the market. If that is their plan then we might be in store for something with their second round cameras. As long as they have good real cinematographers, and videographers to help in the design and beta test, they should not do too badly. If they are as good as their plans, it is likely they are reading everything here, to learn more and improve their product. They are making all the right noises (but proof is in the pudding again). FirewireB is supposed to deliver 100MB/s (single line same as Gigabit Ethernet throughput). They are aiming for a compressed camera, in the second round of releases, which is quiet sophisticated. That would require on camera processing, and memory buffering. But it would be simple for them to build up to this by first implementing memory buffering to allow high shutter rates and maximising bus traffic, pixel packing, and the log gamma curve (they were talking about) in the first release camera. With all these groups doing parallel projects it worries me. Even I was thinking of doing one next year. By the way Jason, what is "BTW", and what did you mean by "QA" (Question and answers?). Now to bed.

September 9th, 2004, 12:26 PM	#1640
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	BTW- By the way QA- Quality Assurance Still not sure about FirewireB if we're needing 64-bit frame-grabbers for the Altasens. They're going to have to clip bits somewhere. In other words, you're not going to get a high-speed camera.

September 9th, 2004, 12:41 PM	#1641
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	OK, I get you, QA hit me a bit out of left field, thats why I didn't catch on to it. I see what you mean, I haven't heard any negative report of their QA yet, have you? Yes, your right, anything above standard frame rates, for slow motion capture, will require much more than one uncompressed Firewireb. I'll wait and see what happens.

September 9th, 2004, 07:25 PM	#1642
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Obin, I can't find the SheerVideo beta download. Wasn't it on the website, or do I have to personally e-mail them?

September 10th, 2004, 07:02 PM	#1643
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	http://www.dv3productions.com/pub/ Jason you will find the demo in that folder for mac os X has any one seen this chip: http://www.fast-vision.com/cameras/P...salessheet.pdf it's global shutter and 1inch in size..what are the down sides on this one one? anyone? WOW I am impressed..just came back from the screening of the VariCam footage that DuArt fixed the colors/contrast on..looks really really good..I would shoot a feature on that camera EVEN with the compression and 8bit! if that looked that good think what 1080p 12bit is going to look like! Steve, shipping update on the Altasens?

September 10th, 2004, 10:48 PM	#1644
Anders Holck Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 59	64 bit Board + f-mount camera w.Micron MT9M413 CMOS Sensor+XCAP soft: http://www.epixinc.com/products/pixci_cl3sd.htm = $15,430.00 test mpeg: http://www.epixinc.com/images/1sec1000fps.mpg

September 10th, 2004, 11:25 PM	#1645
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hey Obin, Do you have a current license for SheerVideo? Seems like the beta wants an already valid SheerVideo license to work correctly.

September 11th, 2004, 09:07 AM	#1646
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	that is not a beta jason but a demo..do you need a code to unlock the demo or jsut to un-zip it?

September 11th, 2004, 10:06 AM	#1647
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Okay Obin, I'll see what happens here, but I have auditions to run in an hour, so I won't be able to play around with this again till later today or tomorrow. Typically though I'm assuming that you only get so many "trys", especially on my machine where I've "tried" the program before.

September 11th, 2004, 11:34 AM	#1648
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I think i'ts just a watermark not a limited number use demo I need some feedback Jason..we are looking at save formats now and I need to know how well the sheervideo works for you ;) would anyone care for a frame or 2 in the RAW format we have going? I would like to know the Rob project could transcode this RAW file yet...

September 12th, 2004, 07:41 PM	#1649
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	I'm really sorry Obin, but there must be something that I'm doing wrong, and I'm really not sure because I've done this type of thing many times before (installing Quicktime Components). Quicktime won't play any of my SheerVideo movies. Also at this point in time I can't re-install my system to try and get a fresh install for Sheer to work on, so that it hasn't see that it's been installed before.

September 12th, 2004, 07:50 PM	#1650
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Does anyone else on the list have a mac for editing? I need help on this asap if anyone can that would be really great We now have CIneLink working and are working on save formats and re-doing the preview on-screen for color instead of the SDK black&white and using our own code for preview/disk write