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Old September 16th, 2004, 01:29 AM   #1696
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Juan,

The new compression for bayer images is new (although it is an extension of our 10bit codec.) No images to release yet from the new stuff.

Obin,

I don't know what "CineLink" is. If this is your tool then we have discussed this possibility.

Jason,

"Is it RGB 4:4:4 or YUV 4:2:2?" Neither. It is a direct Bayer compressor. Bayer images go in and Bayer images can come out -- however, under normal operations, the decompressor demosaicing filter will be used to output either RGB 4:4:4, YUV 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. The compression is not involved with this decoding option. All intended to be very flexible.
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Old September 16th, 2004, 02:53 AM   #1697
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Starting from the begining

Just wanted to throw in a quick hello...
All the work you guys have put in is absolutely incredible.
I am trying to keep up with all the tech stuff, and certainly learning alot as I go. I got in late in this discussion, so I am reading from the begining.
I was up till 3 last night and made some good progress.
I just wanted to start off tonight be saying thanks for laying all this incredible groundwork.
I am eventially looking to undertake a similar project with similar goals. I will truely be standing upon the shoulders of giants...
Keep up the good work.

Thanks,
Erik
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Old September 16th, 2004, 08:35 AM   #1698
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Quote:
Bayer images go in and Bayer images can come out -- however, under normal operations, the decompressor demosaicing filter will be used to output either RGB 4:4:4, YUV 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. The compression is not involved with this decoding option. All intended to be very flexible.
So it's decompressing a Bayer stream in RT? For a good bayer demosaic filter at 1080/24p, that seems like a lot of horsepower will be needed, or is there a seperate converter app that we're talking about here that's non-RT, and I'm just really misunderstanding things? Or is it simply an AVI file that can't play back RT, but at least we don't have file sequences flying around everywhere? BTW, I'm not expecting RT bayer conversion, for a good CFA demosaic filter, I really don't believe that's possible. Sure linear is fast, but it also seems to have a lot of problems that have to be circumvented by an anti-aliasing filter somewhere in the conversion process.

In other words, with your capture/convert applications, are you capturing a stream to an AVI file that has bayer information in a monochrome format (on the disk), but when you open up the AVI it shows color information because it's decompressing the bayer info?

Also, how much compression are you applying if you're able to get this on single hard-drive without an array? Can you compress Bayer information?

And are you only supporting one brand of frame-grabber (I'm assuming EPIX)?

This all sounds very interesting, and would definitely change the hard-drive specs that I have for my current camera design.
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Old September 16th, 2004, 10:54 AM   #1699
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Juan I posted the raw files for you to play with....did you get a chance yet? I would like feed back from anyone that has converted the .raw files ....Rob ? Juan?
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Old September 16th, 2004, 11:50 AM   #1700
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<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez :--->>>

Quote:
So it's decompressing a Bayer stream in RT?
Some bayer filter yes, others no. By delaying this discussion until you need it will save a huge amount of work-flow time. Fast de-bayer previews are perfect through-out a lot of the editing time. We can dynamically switch de-bayer filters on decode, based on your needs. Rendering out an effect will use the best (and slowest) de-bayer filter, but as most previews are real-time in the CineForm products, rendering can be mostly keeped until output.
Quote:
Also, how much compression are you applying if you're able to get this on single hard-drive without an array? Can you compress Bayer information?
We compressed gamma corrected bayer data to around 4:1. That means around 15MByes/s for a 12bit stream.
Quote:
And are you only supporting one brand of frame-grabber (I'm assuming EPIX)?
That is what we are working with now. I'm get lots of excellent help from the guys at Silicon Imaging, so we have discussed other frame capture opportunities. But we are still in the research and development stage.
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Old September 16th, 2004, 09:37 PM   #1701
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Obin,
I'm working on it.
Don't expect me to give you results now, cause my converter is very alpha and I'm a lazy coder :).
I need to correct some problems I got with 1280x720 mode.
If you have 1920x1080 I can give you results now! :)

BTW your test3 image have its blue channel messed up (at least on my Combustion)
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Old September 16th, 2004, 10:28 PM   #1702
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lossless 4:1 bayer compression

> original post by David Newman
> We compressed gamma corrected bayer data to around 4:1.
> That means around 15MByes/s for a 12bit stream.

David,
Am I reading this right?
12-bit bayer -> gamma remapping (log, I assume) -> 10-bit, then a mathematically lossless 4:1 compression on a single frame of bayer data? From my own experiments, I don't see that there is that much redundancy in an image frame, unless it is exposed wrong or the lens is crap. Even the most compute-intensive algorithms stop at around 2..3:1. If you can prove your claim, then I have to congratulate you on this breakthrough !

... some time later ...

Well, I found the technology backgrounder on your website, which states that it is visually lossless, not math lossless. 4:1 lossless would have been nice :-)
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Old September 16th, 2004, 10:39 PM   #1703
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Where did you read "mathematically lossless" ??
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Old September 16th, 2004, 11:40 PM   #1704
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David, I know we have had differences in the past, but thanks for the effort with the bayer compressor/editor I asked for this project (and also the capture, I didn't expect). I hope you do very well out of it.

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Yes, CineForm has been quietly working on our capture and high bit-depth bayer-based editing solution. One day we do intend to support the Mac, yet today we can get better performance out of a PC (for our architecture -- not a PC vs Mac thing.)

We intend to support compressed capture up to 30Hz for 1080p and 70+Hz for 720p. This will be on a single CPU system over standard PCI, to a single drive (or any type.) Higher frame rates will be obtainable on multi-CPU systems. -->>>

How fast was the cpu?

Thanks.
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Old September 17th, 2004, 10:29 AM   #1705
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Yes, CineForm's codecs are visually lossless not mathematically lossless (ML). The quality difference in all partical workflows is insignificant, yet we do base the codec on a ML transform, then we mindly quantize for bit-rate control. A ML version is possible yet at 2:1 compression the data rate and entropy encoding times start to become as inconvient as uncompressed. We find the work-flow is best using visual lossless compression.

For performance testing I'm using a 2.8GHz latest series P4 (800MHz memory system). I have only preliminary figures from this system, in a couple weeks I should be able to gave exact encoding rates straight from CameraLink.
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Old September 17th, 2004, 01:23 PM   #1706
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Thanks I say again, extemely good news. ;} This gives the project new vigor and direction, as with such a quality profesional NLE/capture system, now everybody has a good suitable workflow chioce.
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Old September 19th, 2004, 09:42 AM   #1707
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Juan how is it going with the .raw files?
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Old September 19th, 2004, 03:33 PM   #1708
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Obin,
I told you, I need to check everything again for 1280x720, and I'm a bit busy with two films I'm transferring to 35mm these days.
Also I'm a bit lazy at coding (I prefer to make things slow but right at first shot :) ).
If you could give me raw images from the 3300 at 1920x1080 I can give you results right now.

Also I'm on line here fiebelk a t hot-mail d o t com (obfuscated email link to avoid spam)
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Old September 20th, 2004, 12:02 AM   #1709
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Ok what would be a good chip with lots of range for shooting 1080P black and white? I have been working with a Director that wants to shoot a feature in Black and White..any ideas crew?

Just so you know we are still hard at work coding the bayer converter tiff saver and color bayer preview side of things for CineLink
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Old September 20th, 2004, 01:12 AM   #1710
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Very cool,

can't wait to see the end results that you get.

BTW, what algorithm are you going to use for the final bayer conversion to TIFF?
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