4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

[Gabriele Turchi]

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Gabriele: Obin's RAW clips aren't readable by any normal program.
You will need programming skills to read them at this point in time. -->>>

Thanks Rob, What softwere i need?

Best regards
Gabriele

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

Obin's .RAW images, if they are in sequence (I mean one .RAW for every frame) can be opened with no problems on Photoshop.
You just need to know resolution and bit depth.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Hi juan

i have tryed with photoshop but the pictures is all Black!

I think before we must use a softwere wich "read"that raw file and convert it in tiff ecc.....

Rob.........?

Best reghrds
Gabriele

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

It is all black cause you need to apply gamma correction of at least 2.6

[Régine Weinberg]

Hi
or good evening as we have 22.08 here near Bordeaux, 10 miles from the ocean, 70 miles of free beach , surfer's paradise and not only, but very good red wine. I've been with the local Linux-video group, French. German, Uk, Irish and Down Under mix, Chateau Marbuzet 1997, talking english and french, hacking live in my wi-fi palmtop a new mix, maybe a phonetic version, of fernchlish or so.
Fact is this year in Montreux I got in hold of a JVC box cam with the altasens in, an PL/mount adaptor and an angenieux fitted to it. Swiss television doing tests to use it with cycle races like Tour de France together with france 2. Really nice pictures, crisp, fantastic, wonderfull but so sorry, sounds so stupid, anlog magic was missing and even not the DOF, still not S16 and far, far away from any russian cheap rugged 35 mm.
As I told all the world here, my eclair and my aaton they are heavy, rugged rocksoild, they have no gain, no fancy switches, nothing to setup, only shutter, speed and that's okay. The zoom alone takes all my brain, the scene, the actors and light the rest, using a staement of the big-ones: it is painting with light. A retired , sorry but true, russian cameraman doing DIY processing, and I use an old cutting desk, with a Pentacon Scan cam going on SCSI producing zillions of tiffs. aAbatch procedure take of the perforation and a friend wrote with the http://www.montivision.com/products/
free SDK a batch procedure that takes the tiff's out of a folder and buiilds an avi out of it. Mplayer on Linux will do so too I guess. Cianarella pops up that's it, real low budget, only hunting for cheapo 16mm material is not easy at all, and my home scan saves $$ does a good job as any photo scan but it's not the fastest on the block.
So I do think have a look at www.dynabolic.org it's open mosix, a linux that will build from two boxes, dead easy a cluster, has Cinarella,Jahshaka and much more allredy ready to run and it is the only Linux for video and music streaming. One new AMD and two older one's 2500+ and the Cinarell render farm, is up running, that's low indie budget. Linux is not more tricky than Windof any more, I'm using Knoppix too a live CD you can install and the easy way to have a full rocksolid unstable Debian running, openoffice even open's all word files so dual boot you have it all and with ext3 or reiser or SGI file system your are much better as Fat or any windows file system.
Dynabolic can hack any windows disk ands sending the files to a box next to it. FilmGimp is a bit kodak and just fine, low budget free. Google for Video for Linux = Cinarella, Mainactor, free with Suse, Kino there sure not HD the last ones but the code can be hacked there are even some not mature basic ones but all the code is GNU, the code for the gig ethernet should be anywhere out in the www linux world. maybe you have found it already.

good night
and merci

So in the Cam-Computer shuold as in set-top boxes cell-phone run an open OS why not any flavour of Linus, the code is free
with an epix camarlink to giga converter i do guess a lot of problems are gon. Kinetta idea of i-pod-Toshiba 2.5''disk as an array is not bad, nt expensive anymore as 1.8'' are out but the Kinetta price tag drives me mad.

[Rob Scott]

Dynabolic

That's http://www.dynebolic.org/ in case anyone is interested. It looks interesting, from what the web site says.

[Jason Rodriguez]

I am buying a MicroATX board and shipping to our programmer for final work!

Obin, glad to hear everything is working, but what board did you have before???

I want to avoid that chipset, or at least be able to deduce what might have been wrong. I hope you don't feel like I'm getting on your case, but for the sake of the rest of us here, so that we don't repeat your mistakes, please, please, list the specs of your current board-set.

This means:

Processor,
Chipset (Northbridge, Southbridge)
Memory Type
Graphics (or embedded graphics) chipset.

I do not believe that this is such a difficult question, and it's quite annoying that I've had to ask it so many times. If something's not working (and this goes for everyone here), please list what it is that's not working so we can all avoid the same mistakes and not constantly re-invent the wheel!

[Obin Olson]

I will try and get that info for you in the morning Jason/// All I can say is STAY away from SIS onboard stuff!! and DON"T buy the cheapest mother board you can get your hands on ;) IT won't work.


I will try and get a few 1080P frames for everyone to see in the morning also...it will be 8bit as that is all that is supported on the EXPORT from my SOftware at the moment...

[Rai Orz]

Ideas from artists:

The technical side is not all. As Ronald say: The JVC altasens work well, but has not the spirit of Movie pictures. But why?

Video Camara Producers create cameras to shoot the best pictures. Technical datas of the top modells, like Sony HDW-F900 or Panasonics Varicam, sounds perfect, but why are those "best pictures" all time look like video, and not like film? Why?

This is a point for all people who wont shoot movies, not for TV docus, or news. There are worlds between HDTV (TV) and filmmaking (cinema). The JVC altasens is create for (HDTV) TV. 60fps is HDTV, it´s not movie like.

But there are a lot of things more to have "Film Look":

DOF, motion blur, fps, resolution, Colors, etc.

And it is not only one of this. As Markus said: Don't see one technological element isolated. Not the DOF, not the resolution, not the bit depth of the image. When everything does not lead to something that you can put on a normal tripod with the workflow of a super16 (or35mm) camera engeneers might be happy, but cameraman and directors wont.

Since 1984, my company made also parts and solutions for filmmakers and movie productions.

Thats why we started with a desire list, from cameramans and directors, to build our HD indi filmcamera DRAKE. Sorry the web side is not online yet, because Markus (the director of the movie) and his team continue shoot his fantasy film "Drachenfeder" (Paladin) with our camera.

www.drachenfeder.com (german infos about the movie)

more about the DRAKE camera you find here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=34339

In the past we build working HD 35mm Adapters, but for drake we found a other way for the DOF solution. (Its mutch more than other 2/3", also more than S16mm. Its between S16mm and 35mm, lets say like 25-27mm).

I found, the first real "film" like digital camera is the ARRI D20.

Our final goal is also a camera with a real 35mm CMOS Sensor. Now, after we found a (relatively) inexpensive CMOS Sensor, the timeline for a 3 chip camera with build in HDD´s will be autumn, next year.

In the meantime we will test also a altasens solution, but only with additional film funktions (external shutter etc.)

Ronalds idea is not wrong. A Cameraman, who worked day by day with 35mm film cameras, dont like menus with thousends of submenus. Those cameras have a optical few finder and you have no preview of that, what you shoot. The only thing may be is a little video camea (why not a HD camera), mounted on the view finder.

The way to handle our max data with 3chips (3 x 2Mpixel, at 24fps with 12Bit = 225MB/Sec) will by a FGA System with 3 HDDs (75MB/Sec for each HDD). But, if you wont you can switch down the resolution and Bit depht. Maybe we will have a optical view finder.

[Rob Lohman]

75 MB/s per harddisk SUSTAINED? That sounds a bit like magic
at this point in time. Personally I'd much rather have an electronic
viewfinder with histograms and zebra patterns personally (which
also happens to be far easier to implement than an optical one!)

[Régine Weinberg]

Hm
hm can be
there is one bord out it on the si imaging page listet, Camaralink and SCSI 160 controller it can do this with the right number of drives, with scsi 320 you can do this even on a board with only one slot,. take a riser card and have two 2 chanel SCSI controler no you have 4 SCI chanels. Maybe there is a card that can do three chanels. I do guess everything exists in the pc world, there is only no easy way to get hold of it.

SATA I do not believe, but maybe somebody did the trick.

Firewire Disk could be, sounds cool to me, who knows about, cheap easy, but native Firewire and not a rewired ol IDE please.

[Rob Lohman]

Ronald: the card is not the problem, SATA or UDMA 5 can do this
as well. I'm interested to see a drive that does that sustained
when WRITING. That would be 10.000 RPM drives then? If so
that would be interesting in regards to heat and power
consumption.

[Rai Orz]

with a PC or embedded system, its not easy possible, but with a FPGA direct to disk writing. You must know, the PC bus, are the problem, also if you use a raid system. Bit write direkt to disk (and the good thing is, HDDs writes intern 16Bit, not only 8Bit), you will have the max. speed a HDD can handle. Since CEBIT 2004 there are a lot of HDDs with this speed over 70MB/Sec. CEBIT 2005 bring more news with low power. If not, why not 4,5 or 6HDDs?. We had testet the direct writing thing together with a company who made digital high speed osziloskops with build in real time HDD memory. They have a FPGA with direct to disk writing, no buffer ram. You must know, the HDD have no file systems, because there is no window, no linux, no CPM, nothing, only a smal MC with a 500Byte ASM init prog. They can write with max speed (82MB/Sec to one HDD) till the HDD is full. For a camera, its will be like a film roll.

Okay, our Drake camera have now an electronic realtime color viewfinder with histograms and some other functions.

But the "big 3 ship solution" will come (maybe) with a optical fewfinder, but maybe someone found a solution to handle a preview screen in realtime also for this data speed

[Régine Weinberg]

Fine sounds realy promising what you are doing. Today it's still morning and my writing an a 24'screen much more easy. Me German living in France in hackemovies known for my haiku style brain dumps as fast-ronald, would like, even if I'm more than 1000 km south to be usefull to your projext if there is any use for me.

It,s fine to have a zebra and all this in a viewfinder, I've worked 20 years, not fulltime, never having one in my viewinder, so I'm old fashioned, but I do know that a S16 or even russian 35mm viefwinder can be bright...bright, you have to close it, but reading a smalish lcd with the, we call it sun, we are waiting for all the time to shine.. s puire pain.. Something like a DIY steadycam rack and a small monitor is wokable you need a nice belt with cells so a bit training is never wrong at all.

The difference film even documentation and Video,-ENG is with film you have to be patient, and if it is indie low low budget you have not only to be patient with your crew, be patient with youself. A HD cam shuold be dead easy to operate, it has to work even in rain and ready to shoot when this magic sunlight with a rainbow pops up. An S16, 35mm if loaded can do this and nobody is craying for cama, Smartcard, configuration,no, after 60 seconds the magic is gone.

It's like photo, a Nikon F4 with a back for 70 meters fire it up like mad, no time to write high dev raw on disk. I do DIY processing here, scan it in and have my magic. Working with my still in love Mamiya Rb67 and scan it in via Umax mirage II two it even dos enot fit on a 24''screen and can be 260 MB that's way cool.
Umax Mirage II need no driver wit Knoppix Debian, just works.

[Wayne Morellini]

<<<-- Originally posted by Ronald Biese : Hi
I've been with the local Linux-video group, French. German, Uk, Irish and Down Under mix, Chateau Marbuzet 1997, talking english and french, hacking live in my wi-fi palmtop a new mix, maybe a phonetic version, of fernchlish or so.

Yes, that will explain it, it sounds like the gramma of a foreign language applied to English with some alternative vocabulary words. English people, about the most, understand Yoda, is ;)

Fact is this year in Montreux I got in hold of a JVC box cam with the altasens in, an PL/mount adaptor and an angenieux fitted to it. Swiss television doing tests to-->>>

Hrrrr, I've been trying to get them to tell me the price of that product for the last x months, but they say it is not on their product list. I originally intended to use one of these with Cineralla, these projects went off the rail (in price direction or performance). So which model box camera and how much is the JVC box camera?. I have heard of an optical angenieux Film lense adaptor, would you know if that converts to DOF optically, or just FOV.

You talk about using Linux, and yes future pocket computers will have over 1GHz, maybe this year or next, then dual core, media processing etc etc. Clearly superior to PC is size and power consumption, if you can use it at cheap enough price. I have allways advocated Toas Intent and Elate VOS system, it will run under Windows or Linux, or many other embedded systems, very fast for an VOS (even their JAVA engine (the competition) has been the fastest PC Java system for years) very superior to other systems. (new Amiga player VOS and QNX OS use it). I design my own OS, and his is the only OS who's spec sheet comes closet to mine (please note, my OS is clean roomed designed, my reference texts ussually go back before 1980's). So I say why not use Toas product to make something works accross many systems, instead of Intel.

Glueing chips to make a big sensor, the problem with gluing them is that the chips has boarders with circuits etc and so you can't make the sensor area match up (ussually) so using a prism (which is what I meant) is the best way to reallign. Prior to the 2CCD idea I also talked about 4CCD like Olympus. But the problem is these manufacturers don't want to spend time on 3chip let alone 4 chip, but I am working (secretly, next year) on a way to replace PRISM a fraction of Prism price. I was originally looking at introducing cheap home made camera (<2K) that will beat any camera on the market. I work on (too) many optical ideas, but now I take a break and see if that job(??) I've been offered, comes through.

On LCD's, LCD's are getting very good, I have been very familiar with new LCD in the past. So direct suunlight is no problem with direct sunlight, or no light (not to mention OEL), also can be made cheap now Manufacturers want to charge big money, but truth isrecent LCD technoclogies (in recent years) are making them fast, clean, clear bright, and cheap (veiwfinder LCOS type LCD could do 300+ frames per second, panel is now competing with TV on refresh).