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Old November 8th, 2004, 07:10 AM   #2026
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Hi Rai, I think Juan found fast sustained drive before, but low capacity and not cheap, so if many new drives like that, then that is very good for pricing.

Everybody:
People mention Kinetta IPOD drives before, for them it maybe cheap for the rest of us probably not. The IPOD drives are likely to be a new breed of super cheap consumer electronics drives manufacturered in new cheap ways, and cheaper when bought in lots of thousands, or tens of thousands, which we can't do. I am familar with these drives and the original pricing objectives. The space requirements of three real drives is very small for a real film camera (even six drives is not too bad). Your one problem is backup, backingup everything until the finale edit is advantageouse, but number of drives canbe expensive. So the commercial enterprises out there should look at cheap tape backup, using cheaper computer industry tape systems. They can use quick convient Disk, wiping any disasterouse scene on the fly, and then backup after they finish each disk (so you only need 6 disks instead of 60), I wrote about it before on the technical thread if (I think) if anybody is interested.

I think to go along with Rai, Ron and Rob/s ;) that it is possible to have a simple digital film camera, but also a TV doco camera at the same time. All you simply do is build in modes: Simple film, Pro Digital film, Handy cam, and Pro Video. Each mode has complexity level for extra features, user selects complexity they need, and forget the rest, on the fly swapping if they wish. If they don't select it they don't ever need to see or think about extra features, simple, calming, relaxing. Rob, I was suypposed to be sending you a list of my framegrabber GUI design, sorry I have been delayed but you don't need it for first version of the software.

For Rai, if you use FPGA then you can also include a processor core to offer user mode level selection for GUI's menues etc capture. Open Core has many, www.ultratechnology.com, has links to interesting ones (extra small, extra processing efficient) under chips link. Once you get to FPGA you can totally toast PC. Now you only need serial cable (Firewire or USB)/and or Ultra Wide Band wireless, to support most IO devices (PCI Express desktop/portable bus will give you even more), and in this case maybe SATA's. So drivers for this emmbeedded system are siimple and small. My original itnention in suggesting PC systems here was to reduce cost, but also to enable the camera to run any realtime editor/processing software, so no need to be near a PC, just connect to USB hub with IO devices.

I think 3 chip is good, but just as much I think 8Mp single chip is good.

On film look, apart from DOF and range etc, in many ways the Film Look is creative, and also technical setup of the camera/capture. Manufacturers make cameras for market and price, they want video look so you will spend more on the digital film model etc. So by setting camera and capture up and then processing we can have film like look, we don't have to be bound by the video industry. So the Altasens should be able to deliver reasonable film image.
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Old November 8th, 2004, 07:12 AM   #2027
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Dear Wayne
primo
The JVC people send it once to my stupid aol adress, due to the fact that I'm writing sarkastic articles for a major German newspaper sometimes, and General Motors will put the German Opel on hold, ... a region where all steel biz has gone will be death , I got a strange thing called arbeit.png and my windows 2K did never ever start again. So I will call them again, but's not cheap at all. That's the reason doing email only from Linux now.
secundo
It changes LOF the Dof does not change, the lens is better, but the size of the chip is not schanging sooy so stupid. It's like Super 8 it's not even S16 but if you can stbilize the film tranport it has his own charming appeal.
Terzio
to produce a cheap HD that will beat anything on the market is very hard to do.
Sony does HD on DV tape, compression as dead, who is crying out there Sooooony!!! Nobody! It will be a X-mas gift and used manly for fun shooting, Grandma on the beach and that's OK.
Some Eng for lections or so Ok It has no PRO image so it's not for the big-ones.
Further on
well DOF mainly is the CMOS or CCD Surface and not so much resolution the reason for Hasselblad or my goody the Mamiya RB67 are never used for speed shooting but in technical documentation, where in a gone era the only way to pull attention was playing DOF and Fashion shooting DOF is the one and only way to go. Look at TV L'Oreal or something ,the product is not the message it's the magic in the picture, that sell beauty products. 35mm rulez. They have no facts they can sell, nothing will make look you better as only your joy and satisfaction, maybe a haircut helps.
But back again, mirrors could do the trick to create multiple Cmos and create 4xquad imagers maybe with the microlens trick as bright and lowlight capable as CCD's for a fraction of cost, and a fraction of the Pana 8M chip still a dream.Would be bayer but thet's a resolution theme and a software issue,
Crazy, well flame me the foveon on 25p is lousy, but huge compared to an altasens. No Bayer due to pixel groups with low 25p res lots of light 4 of them would be , not even thinking of.
Mirros and lenses projection on each a 4th picture not to have more Dof only to have an acceptable resolution.iIso stop writing here, drives me mad.

But competing at the bottom line, you need sales forces as Sony, competing at the level of Kinetta is much more easy. And I'do believe more fun.

ronald
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Old November 8th, 2004, 07:27 AM   #2028
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<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : Obin, glad to hear everything is working, but what board did you have before???

I want to avoid that chipset, or at least be able to deduce what might have been wrong.-->>>

Jason I have a SIS type board and problems, many in the music industry experienced more problems with integrated VIA boards. Any integrated board is a potential problem. The problem was this (apart from BIOS programming on some boards) that chipset designers, or the end main board designers took cheap or sloppy shortcuts with available resources. So what happened say with VIA integrated boards, for example, is that the interrupt request lines (or was that the DMA lin es) were loaded up with too many IO circuits at the same time, that caused interference and timing problems for realtime applications/cards like music editing/processing, so trying to record a live analogue signal became difficult, and I think also synchronising the variouse sound processing elements. This can gum up IO, processing, and the programs depending on it. Now you can see how this can stuff up capture. Not all boards are going to have this problem, VIA and SIS should have solved many of these problems in newer boards (but I wouldn't assume this for the cheapest integrated baoad). Standard windows drivers are not nessacarily going to properly in controlling all hardware either, and that could greatly wreck capture (like the recent Firewaire driver debarkle and the Gige ethernet driver that SI replaces for much more performance). So it is needed to find out the best main baords that work here.
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Old November 8th, 2004, 07:42 AM   #2029
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Dear Wayne

I had to dig in a pile aol papers, so sorry I mixed something up
the JVC I was allowed to touch and smell it was a 3x altasens.
the Ikegami http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/pdf/HDL40HS.pdf

was the beast France 2 and so like to use for the Tour de France and live sport etc. It's a lot of bucks as it is in fact only a box like the one from Steve with a not cheapo but for broadcast=as keep indie out we still have the money...dual link Hdi SDI out.
Look at the picture the cheapo shoulder pad at this time

there was an asking price as 14K Swiss Franc only the box maybe dropped a bit but Ikegami is not a cheap one anyway., I do know the german sales geek very well from time dating back to the Avid or Edit cam and the docking station, called transport.
They say the HDL-40HS is THE eng cam only to have an apple, pc or Unix station with a HD SDI dual card and some 320 SCSI disks as backpack and go for the next dessert war, but have an eletric power station next by.

I do know, TV is using this from the balcony of a heavy truck so no problem at all.
ronald.

p.s. DOF well it's a small chip, color anything way better than DV a bit cold but with software Filmlook could be there why not,
if not resolution wise a DVX 100 will do and is way cheaper.
merci
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Old November 8th, 2004, 07:42 AM   #2030
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Wayne, thanks.
You know, i not on the way: "lets wait for better things coming out". Makus shoot his movie now with our DRAKE camera, because we made it with parts from now, and not from the feature.

If someone wont all datas from 3 x 2MB Chips, 12 Bit, they know it will be not a cheap solution, so they can also archived the HDDs like film rolls. Otherwise they can switch down. Compressed is not the way we will go.
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Old November 8th, 2004, 07:47 AM   #2031
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<<<-- Originally posted by Ronald Biese : Dear Wayne

to produce a cheap HD that will beat anything on the market is very hard to do.
Sony does HD on DV tape, compression as dead, who is crying out there Sooooony!!! Nobody! It will be a X-mas gift and used manly for fun shooting, Grandma on the beach and that's OK.
-->>>

I have a way to investigate, I am reasonably sure it canbe done cheaply. If anybody wants to partner with me, pay money, patents and manufacture I talk, otherwise I not say much. Often I sit down to figure out problems and come up with unique solutions. Sometimes others will bring same solution to the market years after. Even when "expert" say no. I like writing German style, so frugal, no need to use all those "the"'s and over useless fill in words ;) I often have the problem, when emailing with German, Russian, and Asian people in english, of starting to copy their grammar style.
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Old November 8th, 2004, 08:00 AM   #2032
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Re: Dear Wayne

<<<-- Originally posted by Ronald Biese : I had to dig in a pile aof papers
so sorry I mixed something up
the JVC I was allowed to touch and smell it was a 3x altasens.-->>>


I am not familiar with Swiss Franks, how much is that in Euros or American dollers?

Is the camera this one:

JVC's KH-F870U:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/p...;feature_id=08

We read $2KUS, but doubted it.

Rai:

Yes, I was talking about future cameras, not the present camera.
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Old November 8th, 2004, 08:55 AM   #2033
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Dear Wayne in Europe the told me not giving any price as there is no need for such a camera as no TV station does HD.
HUUUH
It's the camera I could touch and smell.
The Ikegami I did send yoo the link is a single altasens and they are not so crazy as JVC even not in France.
JVC in France asks for telling you the price, a company letterhead, the company registration, and a bank contact. Than they will communicate the price maybe. The dont need the adress of grandma or so hopefully. The swiss franc is a bit less than Euro
so it will as $ is less than Euro be the same 14K bucks here plus sales tax that's not a matter for you.
But HD dual SDI out its even worse than cameralink.
Just phoned the European head of JVC pro. This camera will not be avaiable in Europe even has been on Show at IBC or Montreux only Noth America or Japan, that's politics...we are ol Europe
ronald
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Old November 8th, 2004, 09:01 AM   #2034
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Thanks Ron. If it is the same model as above that is good enough confirmaation, so not $2K or $20K.


Guys News,. Juan has got his DVX100 raw capture modification website up!

http://www.reel-stream.com/
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Old November 8th, 2004, 01:13 PM   #2035
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Dear Wayne,
hm that is great, a bit more resolution but no compression at all and 4:4:4 out that is just perfect for PAL or NTSC. With an Argus or so great, the Tv indie cam up to now...Hurra..voila.

Further on. There is something I do not understand at all. Slowly beginning. 35mm ist scanned 2k rarely 4k to disc , color correction and all this, 3d work is done, Flame Inferno Shake Maya, and then "flashed" to 35 again. That is usual.

Next reel. Animation, dreamworks, is made totaly with the big 3D tools and 'flashed" to 35 mm ok Next door. Film has NO pixel structure even the color structure of film has no mathematical model like Bayer or RGB, there is no and film is very forgiving this way. Proof DV blown up with a tool and with Argus a bit film-look plus a lot of post work flashed back to film can work
maybe a bit soft,shallow but there is no pixel structure.

Last take. I have never up to now seen any Barco beamer in a cinema theater, so I do not know how many Pixel resolution I do need to have my short beamed there. 1K 2K 4K or what? I've seen my own 3D out of Maya 2300 a bit plus to 1900 a bit plus pixel, but it was 3D and no real trees, no real faces, no real hairs blowing in the wind and fairly big but not theater big. A 3d tiger and stuff like this, a lego 3d short-murder in the coffe cup fun but no reala film, the pizza gang strikes back.

What do you think, as I do know, to have my short in the local Cinems is quite easy way more easy as in TV, If it goes than to a -if only one time big cinema-even for free entrance and there will be a big beamer, there no forgiving film anymore - how ill it look.

If this seems strange to anyone, please do re read and griil me later.
ronald
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Old November 8th, 2004, 04:23 PM   #2036
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Rob S.

Just checked out the update to obscura cam. You say you are going ahead with development on the 1300, and will then move ahead to the 1920. What bout the 3300? Will your 1300 software work on that, or will it skip it totally? I only ask because I've been thinking about passing on the 1920 and just getting the 3300RGB, mainly because of the cost (as I understand it, the 1920 is about 2x as the 3300).
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Old November 8th, 2004, 06:54 PM   #2037
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This is amazing to see. Nice to see that Reelstream made this work. Good works guys. Are there any video clips from this setup?




<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : Thanks Ron. If it is the same model as above that is good enough confirmaation, so not $2K or $20K.


Guys News,. Juan has got his DVX100 raw capture modification website up!

http://www.reel-stream.com/ -->>>
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Old November 8th, 2004, 07:42 PM   #2038
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sorry guys for not posting today..I have been working hard..I did get to capture more frames...they are captured 12bit then converted to 8bit...not the best as all the image info is in the bottom 1/4 of the file..not sure why..but when I shoot really dark and pull the gamma up in post it looks VERY film-like and soft....

can someone tell me what the quality hit would be if we captured 1/4 quad pixel RGB at 960x540 edited with that then blew it up to 1080p later on after the edit?

I did this in photoshop and I can't tell any loss in quality..this would allow for mch less disk space for storage of long projects

http://www.dv3productions.com/pub/
look at the 1080p image it's from an 8bit tiff file and has gamma 2.4 on it with an S-curve

Check the quicktime MPEG-4 video also

that is about the MAX framerate I can capture in 12bit at this time..then it's converted to 8bit ;(..will have that fixed soon

I can preview full framerate allday long but we have CPU overload issues with RECORD at the moment
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Old November 8th, 2004, 10:06 PM   #2039
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Quote:
but we have CPU overload issues with RECORD at the moment
Not meaning to sound like a broken record, but . . . . . . . . ;-)

Also another quick question: What was the shutter (pixel clock) you were running at. I'm noticing a little bit of stretching when you chang directions from the rolling shutter, so I just want to know what the shutter is now so that I can contrast that with the older settings you've had where there was a lot of stretching.

Thanks.
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Old November 8th, 2004, 11:58 PM   #2040
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Good Obin!!!!!!
At last you started to expose this thing more or less correctly....!
Also really nice colors and It seems good DeBayer too...
Are the colors corrected on a CC aplication?

Well, the most noticeable artifacts of the rolling shutter will be on horizontal panning not vertical...
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