4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Obin Olson · March 16th, 2005, 10:05 AM

Ok a screengrab will do..let me get to work...i will post one then...the last issue we now have is the save of raw data..we are waiting on a 3rd party at the moment for a software fix of the profiler we are using...once this is done we should have a working beta of CineLink!

Obin Olson · March 16th, 2005, 10:07 AM

www.dv3productions.com/pub/dog.tif

shot with an OLD 16mm c-mount lens ;)

Brad Abrahams · March 16th, 2005, 10:15 AM

Hey Obin, some great lattitude and tonal range in that frame. However, I noticed a strange grid-like pattern when viewed at larger magnification.

Obin Olson · March 16th, 2005, 11:18 AM

yes grid..we have the most basic bayer filter you can have..this is why you see the grid. If your digital still camera took every pixel from the chip and gave it an RGB value it would look the same.

after we get raw save working we will have some Bayer Filter options

Oscar Spierenburg · March 17th, 2005, 06:27 AM

That's a huge file for one frame. I can see the grid, but besides that, it has very film like detail and tones. OK great...so now we demand a second image.

No, really it looks great.

Obin Olson · March 17th, 2005, 08:03 AM

found a workaround for the profiler issue..back to work..more later

Jonathon Landell · March 17th, 2005, 11:06 AM

Greetings all. I'm a newcomer, joined years ago but rarely kept up with DVi... but I am exceedingly pleased to come back and find amazing projects like this going on. Obin, you are da man. I have no idea who you are but your perseverence with this project is amazing. 175 pages of replies? What in heaven's name?! And this is soooo the right way to do things, too - start with a sensor, not a Nikon F and a CD/sandpaper.

I will be enthusiastically checking up on this from day to day.... the passion that a lot of folks are displaying for DIY cinema cameras (sic) is great, but here is one place where the passion has some real direction to it.

Also, Obin, if you need any help with very accurate machining (lathing or CNC milling) let me know. Also, if you have any parts that need to be physically aligned to very accurate tolerances, give me a holler - I'm a flutemaker and we have some amazingly accurate ruby-probe 3D measurement tools here in the shop (+/- 0.0001").... I can build you fixturing or whatever you need, at cost. All the equipment belongs to my father and I (old family business) so I'm open to doing whatever work you need to get this camera to the place where you want it. No idea if you'd ever need this sort of work, but I figured if nothing else you'd appreciate knowing that there's someone else willing to donate some time to this project. Our shop is very flexible so don't be afraid to email me (klimermonk -at- hotmail -dot- com) if you have something in mind.

JL

Obin Olson · March 18th, 2005, 08:34 AM

John;

thanks a bunch for the offer..i have a small cnc machine but it seems you have years of working with them on your side(I don't) I will take you up on the offer when the time comes...or atleast you could help if we want to do it at our shop? I am sure good things will come however we do it.

thanks for the positive feedback... ;)

we have some good news.

today we ran save tests that are showing we can get full 24fps 1080p datarate on our 2 drives. We have a test app that saved 4 gigs in 512kb chunks on the disks at 97MB/Sec with no problems...now it's time to write that in the code and get some real progress....

Obin Olson · March 18th, 2005, 08:35 AM

.

Kyle Granger · March 18th, 2005, 08:41 AM

Hi Obin,

Congratulations! Just one thing I noticed...You should only need about 72MB/sec for 24p, 12-bits per pixel. Are you receiving one pixel in 16-bits? With the GigeLink I can pack my 10-bit data, two pixels in 3 bytes. The 10-bit data is bit-shifted by two ("normalized 12-bit").
This packing results (for me) in only moderate overhead for the display (more shifting by 4 must be done).
I'm assuming your capturing about 48MP/sec.

Obin Olson · March 18th, 2005, 08:45 AM

we don't have pixel packing with CameraLink

Kyle, what is your project? are you working on software?

Kyle Granger · March 18th, 2005, 09:10 AM

Obin,
> we don't have pixel packing with CameraLink
Then you are unfortunately stuck with the 16-bit pixels. However, you might try a test: Do the 16-bit to 12-bit conversion in software. The CPU overhead should not be too bad: A couple of shifts and an add in C/C++, and you get 72MB/sec. Your programmer sounds very experienced. 10-bit packing (4 pixels in five bytes, 60MB/sec) is also a possibility, but that increases the bit-twiddling. Yet another possibility: "10.667-bit" packing -- 3 pixels in 4 bytes (64MB/sec).

> Kyle, what is your project? are you working on software?
I am pretty much finished with the software. It is merely a grabber application, like yours, with capture, display and recording to disk. For one Gigelink interface (with SI-3300RGB or SI-1300M), or two cameras (stereo, 2x SI-1300).
It all works fine. There is also a converter dialog, which exports image sequences from the RAW file (BMP (24-bit), SGI (48-bit), and DPX (log 30-bit).

You tend to get married to whatever grabber SDK you use. I lucked out with the GigeLink: It is well-written and well-documented.
Most of the CL boards I looked at last summer do perform pixel packing (BitFlow, Coreco, Leutron) --- not that that helps you.

Obin Olson · March 18th, 2005, 10:33 AM

Kyle are you using 10-12bit in your software? or are you using 8bit captures? what are you going to do with your software?

Kyle Granger · March 18th, 2005, 12:17 PM

> are you using 10-12bit in your software?
Application is hot-rodded for 12-bit packed. No 8-bit captures (but simple enough to implement). Device can be 10-bit (3300, 1300) or 12-bit.
> what are you going to do with your software?
I shoot with it almost every day. And a company is involved.

Wayne Morellini · March 19th, 2005, 08:10 AM

Can you keep us updated, and give details when the time comes?

Wayne.

March 17th, 2005, 11:06 AM	#2647
Jonathon Landell Tourist Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 4	Appreciation Greetings all. I'm a newcomer, joined years ago but rarely kept up with DVi... but I am exceedingly pleased to come back and find amazing projects like this going on. Obin, you are da man. I have no idea who you are but your perseverence with this project is amazing. 175 pages of replies? What in heaven's name?! And this is soooo the right way to do things, too - start with a sensor, not a Nikon F and a CD/sandpaper. I will be enthusiastically checking up on this from day to day.... the passion that a lot of folks are displaying for DIY cinema cameras (sic) is great, but here is one place where the passion has some real direction to it. Also, Obin, if you need any help with very accurate machining (lathing or CNC milling) let me know. Also, if you have any parts that need to be physically aligned to very accurate tolerances, give me a holler - I'm a flutemaker and we have some amazingly accurate ruby-probe 3D measurement tools here in the shop (+/- 0.0001").... I can build you fixturing or whatever you need, at cost. All the equipment belongs to my father and I (old family business) so I'm open to doing whatever work you need to get this camera to the place where you want it. No idea if you'd ever need this sort of work, but I figured if nothing else you'd appreciate knowing that there's someone else willing to donate some time to this project. Our shop is very flexible so don't be afraid to email me (klimermonk -at- hotmail -dot- com) if you have something in mind. JL

March 16th, 2005, 10:05 AM	#2641
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Ok a screengrab will do..let me get to work...i will post one then...the last issue we now have is the save of raw data..we are waiting on a 3rd party at the moment for a software fix of the profiler we are using...once this is done we should have a working beta of CineLink!

March 16th, 2005, 10:07 AM	#2642
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	www.dv3productions.com/pub/dog.tif shot with an OLD 16mm c-mount lens ;)

March 16th, 2005, 10:15 AM	#2643
Brad Abrahams Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 65	Hey Obin, some great lattitude and tonal range in that frame. However, I noticed a strange grid-like pattern when viewed at larger magnification.

March 16th, 2005, 11:18 AM	#2644
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	yes grid..we have the most basic bayer filter you can have..this is why you see the grid. If your digital still camera took every pixel from the chip and gave it an RGB value it would look the same. after we get raw save working we will have some Bayer Filter options

March 17th, 2005, 06:27 AM	#2645
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	That's a huge file for one frame. I can see the grid, but besides that, it has very film like detail and tones. OK great...so now we demand a second image. No, really it looks great.

March 17th, 2005, 08:03 AM	#2646
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	found a workaround for the profiler issue..back to work..more later

March 18th, 2005, 08:34 AM	#2648
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	John; thanks a bunch for the offer..i have a small cnc machine but it seems you have years of working with them on your side(I don't) I will take you up on the offer when the time comes...or atleast you could help if we want to do it at our shop? I am sure good things will come however we do it. thanks for the positive feedback... ;) we have some good news. today we ran save tests that are showing we can get full 24fps 1080p datarate on our 2 drives. We have a test app that saved 4 gigs in 512kb chunks on the disks at 97MB/Sec with no problems...now it's time to write that in the code and get some real progress....

March 18th, 2005, 08:35 AM	#2649
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	.

March 18th, 2005, 08:41 AM	#2650
Kyle Granger Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: . Posts: 52	Hi Obin, Congratulations! Just one thing I noticed...You should only need about 72MB/sec for 24p, 12-bits per pixel. Are you receiving one pixel in 16-bits? With the GigeLink I can pack my 10-bit data, two pixels in 3 bytes. The 10-bit data is bit-shifted by two ("normalized 12-bit"). This packing results (for me) in only moderate overhead for the display (more shifting by 4 must be done). I'm assuming your capturing about 48MP/sec.

March 18th, 2005, 08:45 AM	#2651
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	we don't have pixel packing with CameraLink Kyle, what is your project? are you working on software?

March 18th, 2005, 09:10 AM	#2652
Kyle Granger Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: . Posts: 52	Obin, > we don't have pixel packing with CameraLink Then you are unfortunately stuck with the 16-bit pixels. However, you might try a test: Do the 16-bit to 12-bit conversion in software. The CPU overhead should not be too bad: A couple of shifts and an add in C/C++, and you get 72MB/sec. Your programmer sounds very experienced. 10-bit packing (4 pixels in five bytes, 60MB/sec) is also a possibility, but that increases the bit-twiddling. Yet another possibility: "10.667-bit" packing -- 3 pixels in 4 bytes (64MB/sec). > Kyle, what is your project? are you working on software? I am pretty much finished with the software. It is merely a grabber application, like yours, with capture, display and recording to disk. For one Gigelink interface (with SI-3300RGB or SI-1300M), or two cameras (stereo, 2x SI-1300). It all works fine. There is also a converter dialog, which exports image sequences from the RAW file (BMP (24-bit), SGI (48-bit), and DPX (log 30-bit). You tend to get married to whatever grabber SDK you use. I lucked out with the GigeLink: It is well-written and well-documented. Most of the CL boards I looked at last summer do perform pixel packing (BitFlow, Coreco, Leutron) --- not that that helps you.

March 18th, 2005, 10:33 AM	#2653
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Kyle are you using 10-12bit in your software? or are you using 8bit captures? what are you going to do with your software?

March 18th, 2005, 12:17 PM	#2654
Kyle Granger Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: . Posts: 52	> are you using 10-12bit in your software? Application is hot-rodded for 12-bit packed. No 8-bit captures (but simple enough to implement). Device can be 10-bit (3300, 1300) or 12-bit. > what are you going to do with your software? I shoot with it almost every day. And a company is involved.

March 19th, 2005, 08:10 AM	#2655
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Can you keep us updated, and give details when the time comes? Wayne.