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Old July 20th, 2004, 11:04 PM   #886
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wayne Morellini :
Yes, this is why I am eager to see you here. We haven't figured a name or logo yet, but I have suggested privately to the Rob's and Steve I, the name Computer Cam, or Custom Cam. People here might want to suggest Cinema Cam instead.
What about it?

Quote:
Originally posted by Les Dit : I had my programmer implement a bi cubic rescale to 1280 x 720 in the GPU of a late model Nvidia card. He was only able to get it running at about 4 fps, for some reason.
He did however learn how to code the GPU, for what it's worth.
Programming it was a Beech, he said.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Scott :
Transferring data from GPU into main memory appears to be too slow to be useful for real-time applications.
Yes, programming it can be. In future implementations of direct X, the on chip co-processors are to be combined combined and upgraded into a more general purpose CPU for graphics with logic branching.

Rob, your slow GPU transfer rate to memory. AGP works on extreme transfer rates with block transfers. How is this transfer being done? I can understand that some ways might be slow, but there should be a fast way to write to card memory and then transfer out in large blocks to main memory (individual word access by the main board CPU would be slow).

I had a look at your developement Blog, about the machine code, that seems to be a classic example of how much C can slow you down, but it seems a little bit large.

Nice assembler link, thanks.
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Old July 21st, 2004, 12:15 AM   #887
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The problem with AGP is that it is very fast but only on one way, from system memory to Graphic card, not from Graphic card to the motherboard's memory.It isn't a symmetrical bus.
This has been solved with the arrival of PCI-E.

If someone here is interested about what I'm saying,the new graphic cards from Nvidia require two molex power connectors and need around 100 watts at full speed.So a P4 3.2 GHZ with a GeForce 6800 sum up to 200 watts, add a Raid 3 or 0 or 1+0 or what you want and you may end with a 300 watts power requirement.

http://support.intel.com/support/pro.../CS-007983.htm

Pentium-M 2 GHZ needs 21 watts and it hasn't got the same horsepower as a P4 2 ghz...

So I can't still understand why people keep saying a laptop needs more energy than an Eden system, unless you were going to use a 1 GHZ Pentium-M...(which isn't so more powerfull than an Eden)



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Old July 21st, 2004, 12:40 AM   #888
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Juan: thank you. Finally someone with some common sense. Pentium M is the way to go. It has the horsepower, and it doesn't draw too much power. The GPU is an interesting post-production possibility, but in no way should we rely on it for an in-camera system.

Just use a laptop. If you absolutely have to put everything in one box, take the laptop out of its case, ditch the LCD, and cram it all into a box.
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Old July 21st, 2004, 03:15 AM   #889
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Hi there peeps,



Kinda lost track of this thread, and just recently picked it up again. Exciting to see how things are going! Def learned a lot too, by reading Les' and the two Robs' posts (just to name a few).

Now, noticed the wavelet section over at the Wiki page and that reminded me of an old link:

http://www.maven.de/code/wavelet.zip

I'm not the person to judge if this is something that might jumpstart you guys into implementing something similar. But just maybe it does.

Keep it up!

Xtof
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Old July 21st, 2004, 04:31 AM   #890
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Juan, about the AGP thing, thanks, thats good. We can allways target cheap low end, low powered, versions of PCI express 3D cards, and integrated chipsets, they should have more than enough power. That cloud does have a silver lining.

Quote:
So I can't still understand why people keep saying a laptop needs more energy than an Eden system, unless you were going to use a 1 GHZ Pentium-M...(which isn't so more powerfull than an Eden)
At the moment the via processors are for the cheapest, lowest powered raw 720p alternative. The base level. When they are upgraded (maybe when we get 1080 cameras) they might do 1080. Plus if you want to put it into a handheld case, or a small sholder case, you will have to get a small laptop break it apart, recable it (to fit new shape), maybe replace the laptop drive (if it is slow)and the power hungry LCD (shortly this should not be a problem), or recable it as an external monitor.

Re-edit
--------------------
OK I'm sold on the laptop idea (except for battery life). It is expensive, but if you factor in the display as a external monitor it is not so expensive. Basically you could even extend the LCD cabling (risky, get an expert to do it) to use as an external monitor in a case. Now to make the smallest 720p system we could use the small VIA Antuar based laptops, but none would have Gigbe yet.

The Windows Tablets are expensive, in part, due to (this was a year or so ago) MS charging something like $100-200 each for the OS.

Ben, if you can get that USB camera working smoothly, let us know, I know where I want to use it.
----------------------

But people can use whatever they want on their systems to suit their needs. For compressing, 3 chip, 1080+ etc you are going to need even more than a Pent M. If we can find a way to ring out performance from the integrated 3D GPU than we could still use the Pent M, at no extra cost.

Thanks.
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Old July 21st, 2004, 05:06 AM   #891
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<<<-- Originally posted by Ben Syverson : The smallest tablet is the Sony VAIO U70. But the micro HD inside will never keep up with the data.
-->>>

I think, Transmedia might have done a smaller one that is being sold, called the qbit or something.

Actually the VIA handheld gaming platform (they also did tablets) has a screen and buttons, and support for 1GHZ processor (when somebody uses it). That could be broken down, using the buttons for recording.

If you want to get a better drive, attach a external box to the back with drive and extra battery/camera. You could use it sharp cam style, or lengthways with a small wideangle mirror angled to veiw the screen.
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Old July 21st, 2004, 06:04 AM   #892
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A 2Ghz Pentium M is very fast when you turn off all the lower-power settings. A 1.6Ghz Pentium M was out-doing many 2.4Ghz P4 Desktop systems on AE benchmarks, Cinebench, etc., so at 2Ghz, I'd expect even better performance.
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Old July 21st, 2004, 07:49 AM   #893
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can you put a P M on a standard micro atx or itx board?

FedEx came with the 8inch touch screen ! looks very nice! I think it will work very well for this camera and capture software
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Old July 21st, 2004, 08:43 AM   #894
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I have serious doubts as to whether a 1ghz processor from VIA (whose processors don't perform quite as well as Intel's at the same mhz) can handle the data being shoved at it.

Maybe there really isn't that much processing going on, and it's 90% what chipset and hard drive setup you're using. Rob, do we have any hope of running your software on a slower-than-normal 1ghz machine?

I have no experience with VIA's I/O chipsets and their real-world performance. Anybody?
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Old July 21st, 2004, 08:54 AM   #895
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Quote:
Ben Syverson wrote:
Rob, do we have any hope of running your software on a slower-than-normal 1ghz machine?
I doubt it. My software runs at about 85-90% CPU utilization on my laptop, running a ~2 GHz Athlon XP-M. I think the Eden CPU could be suitable for handling a pre-compressed signal, but I'm not sure about this much data handling. On the other hand, a lot of the performance issues may have to do with memory bus speed. To really tell, we'd need someone to build one and try it out.
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Old July 21st, 2004, 09:15 AM   #896
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@Obin: "can you put a P M on a standard micro atx or itx board?"

Probably, but that defeats the whole purpose of the Pentium M architecture. The whole idea is that you have the Pentium M, which was designed to talk to specific chipsets such as the ICH4-M.

Also, why put a Pentium M in a micro atx board when a laptop motherboard has it built-in -- and is already slimmer, uses lower-power components, and has a batter system pre-built? I guess if you simply must have the camera be all-in-one, you're going to have to find some way to cram a motherboard into your camera housing. It's going to be about equally difficult with a micro/nano-ITX and a laptop's innards.

At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, I say keep it simple -- a camera connected to a laptop. If you want to upgrade the sensor, just get a new camera. Want to upgrade the processor or laptop? Go for it. Putting it all in one box discourages these kinds of changes and upgrades.

@Wayne: "At the moment the via processors are for the cheapest, lowest powered raw 720p alternative."

Wayne, as we were discussing on other threads, I don't think the VIA systems can handle raw 720 @ 24fps. At least not yet. Maybe they'll come out with a kickin' 2ghz system at some point, and we can take another look. But for now, their 1ghz fanless nano boards aren't even out yet and they will be underpowered for our purposes.
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Old July 21st, 2004, 09:16 AM   #897
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Miniture PC's

To Wayne Morellini:

Have any of you guys considered miniture PC?

These would be way better than a laptop, take a look:


http://www.littlepc.com/


"Rugged LCDs

Industrial Grade NEMA Rated LCD Monitors with Touch Screen Options. Designs include Panel, Rack, Open Frame & High Bright Sized from 6.4 to 21 with options and custom designs available."

AND

"LittlePCs

Small pc computers with the power of a desktop PC in the palm of your hand.

Available in P4, P3, Fanless and expansion slot configurations. PCMCIA, Multi-LAN & Compact Flash Custom options available."



Thanks hopes this helps!
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Old July 21st, 2004, 09:24 AM   #898
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@Anhar: "These would be way better than a laptop, take a look"

They say they have a "Pentium 4 Fanless" model, but it just seems to be a 2ghz Celeron. I have no idea whether 2ghz of Celeron is enough -- maybe it is.

I guess I missed how these would be better than a laptop -- you still have to provide 12VDC current, and you still need to add a display that can handle DC power.

These things aren't light, either -- around 6 pounds. Add in a battery and monitor, and you're at around 8 or 9 pounds.
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Old July 21st, 2004, 12:03 PM   #899
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LittlePC - crap - I can build a pc with the same specs for 1/2 the money they want $1400 for the bottom line unit with NO pci slot! I can build a microatx with pci P4 2.8ghz 256ram 400gb raid sata disks 20gb system disk case PS etc for $760

seems more and more this is what I need to do...
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Old July 21st, 2004, 01:04 PM   #900
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Aren't good P M laptops kinda $$$$??
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