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Old July 26th, 2004, 09:59 PM   #1111
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Forgive me if this has been suggested already but would fiber channel HDDs be of any use to this project? With 15,000 rpm and a transfer rate of 200MB ps they would work extremely well in a RAID setup (on camera even...). Prices aren't too bad either. You can get a 36GB hard drive for $2-300 (though that's probably more expensive than people want).
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Old July 27th, 2004, 03:24 AM   #1112
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Yes it certainly would be. This is a typical problem is groups like this, it had been suggested that it must be possible to make faster drives (using multiple heads and platters) but we were all too busy wandering around to worry about looking at it. Maybe it is time for a thread split.

I had allready started threads a while ago Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Problems and Performance for excited discussion on every camera system and problems setting up, Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion for technical developement issues, hardware and software parts (workflow, NLE, codecs etc), and Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - General Discussion for everything else. I have been using them for archival purposes, for new users to catch up, but if everybody wants to adopt them, your welcome to use them.

So what information are on those drives and how do they work, I imagine there will be SATA 300 (non fibre channel) versions eventually? If they are multiple platters, then maybe there are versions with high enough capacities to match the normal multiple raid drives in price and storage (otherwise they will only be suitable for the top of the line for us). Do you know of any other HDD solutions?

Thanks for this effort Aaron.

Wayne.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 04:11 AM   #1113
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Re: Dont lose heart

Thanks very much Anhar (I appreciate your appreciation). The problem is about using the information to finding the best solution and not letting it go to waste (or rehashing the same information over and over again).

About the volunteers, what I am really asking is for some self organising people to work together and go out and track down and research information and products. So everbody takes on a research task, talks about the results (to see if anybody can come up with something better). The problem is if we just rely of people to drop crumbs of information here we will not get a good slice of the loaf (the best solution).

So if 3 or 4 people volunteer, then we can track down thbest solutions for this camera.

Just- In on the news, some American bound airliner was returned to Sydney, because of a possible attempted cockpit invasion and bomb threat, really brings everything into perspective. Just in, it was a note found on board and no mention of a skirmish or cockpit invasion, good news.

Batteries, yes the battery you suggested sounds good. I am also looking at making a cheaper battery pack out of cheap ni-cad cells (I found that you could make them up with cheap Chineese cells, from some places something like a tenth of retail from some suppliers) . Post the link on the technical thread, with two cameras, and many newer models comming, I think this thread is going to be very busy.

Thanks

Wayne.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 04:30 AM   #1114
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<<<-- Originally posted by Ben Syverson : Wayne, I think that camera had a built-in lens? I wouldn't buy something without C-mount -- you never know what kind of plastic optics you'll get. :) - ben -->>>

Sorry, I was meaning a standard lense based sensor (or even replacing the plastic lense with a standard lense).


I've been holding back until you had a good handle on using the camera, but how does the optical properties (not in detail or resolution) look compared to a DV camera like the PD150? To me color in the footage looks a bit flat. Certainly it is filmic, because of the resolution and detail. Optically it looks a little like something from a 35mm GG adapter. I would certainly use it for documentaries, if it wasn't for the low light sensitivty ( and poitential latitude problems).

Could ypu try tests on: a bright full clear sky day, strong light smearing, test charts, and the head and shoulders shoot again with the same lighting.

There has been some negatrive comments on the Fillfactory chip and USB in times past, so I was wondering if you could clear a few things up for us, it would be helpful:

I guess it has the new version of the sensor chip and the USB interface does not do pixel packing, and it does not have on camera frame buffer memory (these things would even out the USB2 burst bandwidth requirement problem and allow 720p shutters above 1/60ths)?

How fast can you run the shutter and not drop below 24FPS in 8 bit and in 10 bit modes, and can the software be setup to force a set synced frame rate (24fps)?

Real Range and light sensitvity estimates?

What is the perforamnce difference when running global shutter to compared to rolling shutter.

Does sumix know of any front end pro video capture/control software.

Thanks

Wayne.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 07:44 AM   #1115
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JVC's KH-F870U HD 3 chip Altsens camera for $2000??

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Gorski : is this the camera with the altasens chip that everyone is talking about?... and is it really less then $2000? when will it be available? will it record directly to computer?... for the love of god... i need answers.

http://videosystems.com/mag/video_shoot_tools_26/ -->>>



http://videosystems.com/mag/video_shoot_tools_26/

Stuff, is this right, a 3 chip Altsens JVC pro box camera for less than $2000? Is this a miss print of less than $20,000?? If this is right we might aswell quit any 1 chip Altsens Cameralink product right now, at these prices it will still be cheaper than the 1 chip + capture card, even with a HDSDI card.

If this is right, I expected a price response from the major manufacturers to squash us eventually, but not like this, and definetely not this much.

So this leaves us left with the Gigbite, firewire, and usb cameras.

I have been unable to find a confirmation of this price, though hopefully I will check with the distributor tomorrow, hopefully he is not still waiting for me to buy a HD-10 camera ;)

Here is a listing with the HD1? replacement, maybe it is somehow design related.

http://www.dealtime.com/xPP-Camcorders--jvc~PG-8

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/p...;feature_id=08


This lists a fuel cell for cameras ;)

http://broadcastengineering.com/news...eering_pick_2/


Now the big question, there are different versions of the altsens, this one has low sensitivity (??) "Sensitivity: F5.6 - F8/2000 lx". Is the version Sumix adn SI are doing better than that?

I somehow doubt the price is true (despite being up at Videosystem for more than a month), but if it is that is totally unexpected good news for us (but not so much for some of our supporters, that I really like mind you).

Thanks

Wayne.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 10:13 AM   #1116
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>>
http://videosystems.com/mag/video_shoot_tools_26/

Stuff, is this right, a 3 chip Altsens JVC pro box camera for less than $2000? Is this a miss print of less than $20,000?? If this is right we might aswell quit any 1 chip Altsens Cameralink product right now, at these prices it will still be cheaper than the 1 chip + capture card, even with a HDSDI card.<<

Wayne, yes this is indeed correct as far as I know. I ran across this very camera last night on accident and was quite shocked. I sent the guys at JVC an email just to verify the validity of the pricing and availability - I'll report if/when they reply.

The only thing I can see that may be problematic for some people is the 720p/60 as there seems to be a distinct love for 24p.

I also ran across another camera with similar specs... can't remember what or where though. I'll sift through my bookmarks and post when I have more info.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 10:33 AM   #1117
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Please do, thanks.

Wayne.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 10:43 AM   #1118
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Too bad a half-decent HD B4-mount lens for that JVC is going to cost you $10,000 ;-)
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Old July 27th, 2004, 10:46 AM   #1119
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Who said I was going to use a B4 ;)
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Old July 27th, 2004, 11:20 AM   #1120
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Ok I looked up the other camera I mentioned previously. I'm not sure about prices (haven't contacted the company for info) and I'm not sure if these will be of any use.

Apogee Instruments has several "platform" variants that can be designed to incorporate practically any chip you see fit. This is likely not going to be of much use to anyone but I figure it can't hurt to post it ;).

Apogee website: http://www.ccd.com/alta_design_gallery.html

Files regarding their "U2 Platform" (PDF):
http://www.ccd.com/U2.pdf
http://www.ccd.com/kaf-1602e.pdf

----------

Regarding the fiber channel HHDs:

I'll try to post in a more appropriate thread next time ;).

(The following is selectively taken from several sources)

Fiber Channel is an Open industry standard serial interface for high-speed systems. You can view fibre channel simply as a transport vehicle for the supported command set (usually SCSI commands). In fact, fibre channel is unaware of the content of the information being transported. It simply packs data in frames, transports them to the appropriate devices, and provides error checking. Also called Fibre Channel-Arbitrated Loop (FC-AL).

Fibre Channel drives were designed for use in multiple-drive system environments like servers. A Fibre Channel configuration consists a backplane, which is an external enclosure that houses a printed circuit board (PCB) and multiple drive receptacles, and a Fibre Channel host bus adapter (HBA). The backplane allows direct connection to the drives (no cable), supplies power to the drives, and controls the input and output of data on all drives within the system. Because so much of Fibre Channel's benefits are derived from its method of data handling among multiple drives, single drive environments will realize no significant performance enhancement by using Fibre Channel over LVD.

Some various sites with useful info:
http://www.fibrechannel.org/
http://www.seagate.com/support/kb/disc/fc-alfs.html

I am not immediately aware of any other HDD solutions that may be of use. I'll take a look and ask some people I know.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 12:06 PM   #1121
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Quote:
Jason Rodriguez wrote:
Just curious to know how Rob Scott's doing with his capture software. Been over to the Wiki and his blog hasn't been updated in a little over a week.
I've been on the road for nearly a week -- trade show for my company. I've just updated the wiki. Unfortunately, due to my dead PC and schedule, it's going to be at least two more weeks before I can make major progress.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 12:30 PM   #1122
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@Wayne: I guess it has the new version of the sensor chip and the USB interface does not do pixel packing

I'm not sure.


@Wayne: How fast can you run the shutter and not drop below 24FPS in 8 bit and in 10 bit modes, and can the software be setup to force a set synced frame rate (24fps)?

You're clearly not reading the posts -- if you catch up on the discussion, you'll see where we're at.


@Wayne: Real Range and light sensitvity estimates?

I won't even comment on this until we have the 10bit log transfer happening. That will make a big difference.


@Wayne: What is the perforamnce difference when running global shutter to compared to rolling shutter.

Again, we've been over this, for now it's rolling shutter only.

@Wyane: Does sumix know of any front end pro video capture/control software.

The hardware is so specialized that it's much easier for them to write it themselves. That's why I'm getting involved now, to brainstorm with them as that software evolves.

- ben
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Old July 27th, 2004, 12:43 PM   #1123
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Does anybody know about someplace to look at image test samples from the Altasens chip??

My main goal is to make a 2K or 1920x1080 camera, and up to now I'm heading for the SI-3170 which uses a chip called YM-3170 from a company called Y-Media situated in California which doesn't have a Web page.

Anyway it seems to me that this is a rather old chip.It was presented September 2000, so I don't know.
More data welcome.....
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Old July 27th, 2004, 01:06 PM   #1124
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JVC AltaSens camera

The JVC KH-F870U camera definitely looks interesting if it really is in the $2000 price range.

According to the information I could find, here are the drawbacks for our project:
  • 1080i60 or 720p60 only (no 24p for filmmaking)
  • HD-SDI output only (4:2:2)
  • Probably incompatible with standard lenses
They could easily have put in 24p to make it suitable for low-budget filmmaking and they deliberately left it out. Jerks.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 01:13 PM   #1125
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@Rob: "They could easily have put in 24p to make it suitable for low-budget filmmaking and they deliberately left it out. Jerks."

24p is one of the last remaining things they won't put in inexpensive cameras. I think the fear is that people will flock to the cheap stuff rather than the high-margin expensive stuff.

Which, of course, is true. What they don't realize is that if they don't provide 24p, somebody else will. Like Steve or Sumix.

- ben
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