4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Rob Scott · August 13th, 2004, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Jason Rodriguez wrote:
Well, the 10-minute film could be "on-going" if you know what I mean. With my own camera it doesn't have to be shot in one weekend :-)

Good! That's the perfect project to shake out the system.

Rob Lohman · August 13th, 2004, 09:58 AM

It's a form of parallel difference/"RLE" compression (for lack of a
better "term"). I'm not too knowledgeble in regards to the math
descriptions and whatnot. I'm preparing to add 10/12 bits
now to see how well it does there and then it's on to converting
it to assembly because it takes around 500ms per frame now
(1280 x 720) which is way too long. It will have to drop to a max
of 30 ms to support 30 fps recording for example.

I've tried to design it for speed (in the way that it works, not
in the implementation yet!) and one pass encoding instead of
dual passes or dictionary/huffman type encoding which would
probably be way too time consuming. We suffer in compression
efficiency, but it is a lot better then I thought it would be. Since
it is not a fixed compression ratio algorithm like DV is it will
fluctuate in size as well depending on content, so we will have
to wait and see how well it will do in the real world.

I will not make it available till it is completely ready, Rob S. will
be testing with me and if it is fast enough it will be implemented
in his camera firmware.

Obin Olson · August 13th, 2004, 01:16 PM

guys, here is what a DOF adaptor can do for miniDV cameras!

check out this shot from a take in the spot I am working on now:

www.dv3productions.com/test_images/DOF shot.jpg
www.dv3productions.com/test_images/DOF shot2.jpg
www.dv3productions.com/test_images/DOF shot3.jpg

tell me that does not look like 16mm film?? ;) I do love this "look" with that shallow DOF!

Les...really I don't care about HDV..like I said I thiink it's total CRAP I have had my hands on it and unless your doing DOC work it stinks bad...have you done any CC work with it? I have and as soon as you try it has HUGE mpeg2 artifacts..so I really don't care...I jsut think its crap that's all ;)

Jason Rodriguez · August 13th, 2004, 02:13 PM

Rob L.,

Will we be able to turn it off (compression) if it's eating too many processor cycles for recording at high-speed (i.e., 48fps)?

Jason Rodriguez · August 13th, 2004, 02:22 PM

Quote:

...I jsut think its crap that's all ;)

I hear yah man. I thought DV was bad, HDV . . . oh no . . .

Rob Scott · August 13th, 2004, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Jason Rodriguez wrote:
I hear yah man. I thought DV was bad, HDV . . . oh no . . .

But ... it's high definition, it must be good! ;-)

Quote:

Will we be able to turn it off (compression)

I'm the wrong Rob (:-) but I'll answer anyway: Yes.

Jason Rodriguez · August 13th, 2004, 09:31 PM

Hey guys,

Not too sure about this, but can you connect an Ultra 320 drive to an Ultra 160 card? Just curious since the Seagate Savvio looks like the perfect drive for what we need (2.5" 10K drive), but it's U320, and I can only find 68-pin U160 Mini-PCI cards.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · August 13th, 2004, 09:54 PM

But it transfers the same amount of data and concumes more or less the same as the Raptor with its SATA interface, Jason.
Are you sure?

http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/...84,610,00.html

Jason Rodriguez · August 13th, 2004, 10:32 PM

But one's a 2.5" drive in comparison to a 3.5" drive. You can stuff 4 2.5" drives in the same space as one 3.5" drive.

Also Ultra 160 is just as fast as SATA.

Les Dit · August 13th, 2004, 10:47 PM

Really?
Try this: Show some HDV and some DV to some laypersons on an adequate monitor . Ask *them* which one looks better. Artifacts and all.
Everybody I've shown the stuff to picks the JVC footage.

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Scott : But ... it's high definition, it must be good! ;-)
I'm the wrong Rob (:-) but I'll answer anyway: Yes. -->>>

Rob Scott · August 14th, 2004, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Les Dit wrote:
Really?

Whoops, I'm nailed. I should have stayed out of that one -- I've never shot HDV :-)

Obin Olson · August 14th, 2004, 07:27 AM

sure HDV "looks" better...but it's not..in the thinking of working with it..YES it is HIgh RES..but it's full of artifacats!! like I said try and CC the stuff..and then you have to recompress it!

anyway this is not about HDV, it's about 4:4:4 10bit single CMOS cams..and they look MUCH better then the NDV format will ever look unless they up the bitrate

I will have the 3300RGB from Silicon Imaging next week...will keep everyone posted!

Jason Rodriguez · August 14th, 2004, 09:15 AM

Very Cool Obin.

BTW, you gotta check for that smearing ;-)

Are you going to be running at the full 1920x1080, or keep back down at 1280x720?

Also has anybody tried doing a sound-sync test, say of a minute or two of footage?

In other words, I'm wondering with these cameras, with sufficient resources, shouldn't you be able to record till you fill up your hard-drive? Are their any indicators when you start or have dropped/missed a frame?

Obin Olson · August 14th, 2004, 09:34 AM

yes I have seen Smear tests Jason and no it does NOT seem to have any smear!!

Jason Rodriguez · August 14th, 2004, 09:52 AM

Hmm,

That's good. Depending on how noisey the chip is then, at 10 bit you should be able to get around 6-7 stops without banding.

BTW, enjoying your hurricane :)

NHC has us under tropical storm warnings right now. Nice wet day . . .

August 13th, 2004, 09:58 AM	#1412
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	It's a form of parallel difference/"RLE" compression (for lack of a better "term"). I'm not too knowledgeble in regards to the math descriptions and whatnot. I'm preparing to add 10/12 bits now to see how well it does there and then it's on to converting it to assembly because it takes around 500ms per frame now (1280 x 720) which is way too long. It will have to drop to a max of 30 ms to support 30 fps recording for example. I've tried to design it for speed (in the way that it works, not in the implementation yet!) and one pass encoding instead of dual passes or dictionary/huffman type encoding which would probably be way too time consuming. We suffer in compression efficiency, but it is a lot better then I thought it would be. Since it is not a fixed compression ratio algorithm like DV is it will fluctuate in size as well depending on content, so we will have to wait and see how well it will do in the real world. I will not make it available till it is completely ready, Rob S. will be testing with me and if it is fast enough it will be implemented in his camera firmware. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 13th, 2004, 01:16 PM	#1413
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	guys, here is what a DOF adaptor can do for miniDV cameras! check out this shot from a take in the spot I am working on now: www.dv3productions.com/test_images/DOF shot.jpg www.dv3productions.com/test_images/DOF shot2.jpg www.dv3productions.com/test_images/DOF shot3.jpg tell me that does not look like 16mm film?? ;) I do love this "look" with that shallow DOF! Les...really I don't care about HDV..like I said I thiink it's total CRAP I have had my hands on it and unless your doing DOC work it stinks bad...have you done any CC work with it? I have and as soon as you try it has HUGE mpeg2 artifacts..so I really don't care...I jsut think its crap that's all ;)

August 13th, 2004, 02:13 PM	#1414
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Rob L., Will we be able to turn it off (compression) if it's eating too many processor cycles for recording at high-speed (i.e., 48fps)?

August 13th, 2004, 09:31 PM	#1417
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hey guys, Not too sure about this, but can you connect an Ultra 320 drive to an Ultra 160 card? Just curious since the Seagate Savvio looks like the perfect drive for what we need (2.5" 10K drive), but it's U320, and I can only find 68-pin U160 Mini-PCI cards.

August 13th, 2004, 09:54 PM	#1418
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	But it transfers the same amount of data and concumes more or less the same as the Raptor with its SATA interface, Jason. Are you sure? http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/...84,610,00.html

August 13th, 2004, 10:32 PM	#1419
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	But one's a 2.5" drive in comparison to a 3.5" drive. You can stuff 4 2.5" drives in the same space as one 3.5" drive. Also Ultra 160 is just as fast as SATA.

August 13th, 2004, 10:47 PM	#1420
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Really? Try this: Show some HDV and some DV to some laypersons on an adequate monitor . Ask them which one looks better. Artifacts and all. Everybody I've shown the stuff to picks the JVC footage. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Rob Scott : But ... it's high definition, it must be good! ;-) I'm the wrong Rob (:-) but I'll answer anyway: Yes. -->>>

August 14th, 2004, 07:27 AM	#1422
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	sure HDV "looks" better...but it's not..in the thinking of working with it..YES it is HIgh RES..but it's full of artifacats!! like I said try and CC the stuff..and then you have to recompress it! anyway this is not about HDV, it's about 4:4:4 10bit single CMOS cams..and they look MUCH better then the NDV format will ever look unless they up the bitrate I will have the 3300RGB from Silicon Imaging next week...will keep everyone posted!

August 14th, 2004, 09:15 AM	#1423
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Very Cool Obin. BTW, you gotta check for that smearing ;-) Are you going to be running at the full 1920x1080, or keep back down at 1280x720? Also has anybody tried doing a sound-sync test, say of a minute or two of footage? In other words, I'm wondering with these cameras, with sufficient resources, shouldn't you be able to record till you fill up your hard-drive? Are their any indicators when you start or have dropped/missed a frame?

August 14th, 2004, 09:34 AM	#1424
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	yes I have seen Smear tests Jason and no it does NOT seem to have any smear!!

August 14th, 2004, 09:52 AM	#1425
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hmm, That's good. Depending on how noisey the chip is then, at 10 bit you should be able to get around 6-7 stops without banding. BTW, enjoying your hurricane :) NHC has us under tropical storm warnings right now. Nice wet day . . .