4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project
 

ok new thread started,

What I am doing.
Taking a 16mm Russian film camera and converting it to digital HD 720p 60fps single sensor CMOS chip

Digital parts.

Taking a board camera with a Micron CMOS chip 1280x1024 10bit, and a frame grabber with CameraLink software/hardware and building a tiny PC to take on-set for image capture/record.

So far.

Getting test images from camera/chip combos to see what is the best design for this system. Looking at colors, saturation, contrast and dynamic range of the units.

Next steps.

Buy camera/capture board combo and order Russian 16mm film camera and start tests.

question, what is the mm of 16mm filmstock? is it really 16mm? is that wide? high? or diagonal? if it's 16mm diagonal then I need to make sure that my chip is no bigger then 16mm..if it was smaller it would have a crop factor...how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI??

can anyone help me answer the questions above? also an update, looks like the raw electronics will cost $2500 plus a computer with RAID and the 16mm body....this will do 48fps so you could get 1/2 speed at 24fps playback...how good is 1/2 speed? Will I want more then that amount of slomo for "film-style" slow motion effects? I have never shot film so I don't know how slow 1/2 is..anyone?? I guess that is like taking 30fps and playing it back at 15fps right? but it will be smooth ;)

48 at half slow-motion is indeed 24 fps. Should look fine. You can
also write the capture software to just drop every other frame
and just write 24 fps to disk.

very good, because of the rolling shutter artifact I will need to shoot no less then 48fps all the time to get rid of the artifact...

update:

trying to get the price down a bit for this "test" order ;)

test images..I will post them when I get home today

Hey Obin,

Saw you on the dvx100 conversion and smx camera threads and see you're going through with this. When you way shooting at 48 fps and slowing to 24 are you looking to play back in regular motion, just with better quality for effects, or are you just talking about just making a slow motion image for a visual effect. (May sound like a silly question, but don't know how you fx guys work). I shot a 16mm feature, so I know a little about it. However, I know very little about camera insides. So you're gonna make a 1 chip HD out of a16mm camera, huh? I've got a CP16 with 32 frame overcrank and an excellent Canon 12-120 zoom/macro focus on it. Can't get myself to well it cause it was my first feature camera, but maybe if I listen to you I can convert it. Of course, I'm shooting features, so I would need great storage. Are you still planning on getting one of the Summix cameras if they come out (not sure if their creation is official or what)?. All these camera mods get me so excited that I may actually be able to make/buy one soon and make flicks that stand a real chance of theatrical release. Keep us posted!!!!! Good Luck.

Mr. Maher, are you from India? also I am not using sumix cameras I will be using a single cmos chip that can output 1280x720 for that HD standard....I will use the 48fps for slow motion effects...how slow does your 16mm look with it's overcranking?

Obin,

No, the name is of Irish descent, (you're talking to an anglo-mutt from Denton, Texas). It's not all that slow. I'm not sure what you need for fx work. This looks about like . . . ummmm . . . well, a little more than half speed. Good for dramatic effect when running, or in a kind of "character realization" state, or someone taking some bullets in the chest. . . if you remember back to Terminator 2, I think there's a scene that probably used around the same speed when Linda Hamilton is setting up Cyberdine to be destroyed, cops show up and start shooting at people. (I know I pulled that out of my butt, but where you guys think in tech, I think in scenes, etc.) Anyway, how's the camera coming thus far?

wow great test image today...I will try and post it up

http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...00 Rebecca.bmp

Why are you using a 16mm film camera body? Lets see:
Film transport mechanism and gate : don't need.
shutter: don't need.
film magazines: don't need
What's left?
All you need is the lens, and lens mount part.
Perhaps it would be simpler to use a box with a lens mount on the front.
-Les

I want the "film" viewfinder and a camera that is a "real" camera not a box with a lens! :) I DP alot for our company and I would not be seen with a box and lens setup on a big shoot ;)

oh btw that "test" image above is NOT a good bayer filter conversion...that is why you see all the jaggy's on the edges of stuff

and a 2nd test pic:

http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...ncorrected.bmp

Obin,

(Call me Larry).

Keep me posted on the Obin-cam. I'd like to see the finished product. What cam's were you using to get true slow mo video?

I will start with 48FPS with this system at 1280x720 as a max frame-rate so I can still get 1/2 speed slo-mo at 24fps...after this tests out then I will buy a much higher speed framegrabber so I can do atleast 60fps ...looks like the order is going in today for the system!!! yahooo!!!! can't wait!!!

software guys are telling me that I can program the capture software to skip frames! this is REALLY good because it allows me to run the camera at 60fps all the time and avoid the "rolling shutter" artifact!!

The day of great chroma keys is nearing.....

the obi-oneCAM maybe? ;) LOL

to obin
 

obin, can you explain me who is the producer of that board camera you mentioned?

thank you,

filip

p.s.

your text:

==========
Taking a board camera with a Micron CMOS chip 1280x1024 10bit, and a frame grabber with CameraLink software/hardware and building a tiny PC to take on-set for image capture/record.
==========

Camera Choice
 

I have a K3 got it on ebay from a guy in Belarus. Shipping was a bit steep $60.00 but I got a pristine camera for $170.

The K3s are dirt cheap.

The American cinematographer's manual will tell you the exact aperture dimensions. 16mm is from side to side. The real difference is that some cameras the K3 included use film perfed at both sides.

Super16 has the film perfed on one side and the aperture plate is enlarged to take advantage of the additional negative space where the perfs were.

I'll go dig out my 12th ed. tomorrow at work if someone doesn't post in the mean time.

to obin - MICRON is ...
 

ok.

that was too fast, now i know that micron in obin's text is not anything connected with size or whatever, but the company name itself. ok. sorry.

so, the producer is micron.com. is this correct?

filip

yes

OK Boys, the guessing game starts NOW !
Get on your best Goggle search hats and find all the board cameras that use mega pixel plus CMOS sensors !
( I'll bet is a development board for the sensor, not meant to be a product )
The winner gets a lollipop ;)

-Les

Guys, whatever cheap commercial alternatives you find, please feel free to list them in my thread:

Home made camera designs?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=25705

If you look in Jauns DVX100 thread, and the alternative Viper thread, I think a number of sensros are covered there as well.

Thanks

Wayne.

With any of these cameras you guys are talking about creating, is there software out there you could use that already exists to capture? I heard about Boxx technologies having some near compressionless codec. Unless I get some serious tech-heads like you guys to write something up for me, I'd need to just buy something becasue I can't program at all.

I'm done with the effects stuff. Worked at ILM and PDI and Dreamworks for 4 years each.
Just give me a good Drama, anyday....I usually like the foreign ones the best.
-sigh- ....off topic, i know, I know.
-Les


<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : You guys crack me up. See, I'm just a filmmaker in a DV Community full of program-writing tech-heads. I need to hang on this site more and learn something. I've worked very little with fx stuff. (Which is ironic being that I want to be in action/adventure/sci-fi flicks). I figured it'll take me another set of years to get profcient with that stuff, and I'd probably serve myself better to focus on stories without much fx work to get in the door. I'm fairly proficient at what it takes to get a productoin done from start to finish by myself, as long as I'm not doing a star wars flick. What are the programs you would suggest getting to know beyond basic editing/2-D Effects and transitions and beginner's chroma key? I barely even work with after fx. -->>>

that's cool Les, my brother would like to work for ILM someday...he works with our company at the moment doing 3d animation and fx for work we do...he is a very very good in LightWave...I have done the google of all google searches. I spent 3 whole days on google looking at all the cameras that are made ..MOST don't work for us, not enough pixels too high price not enough fps the list goes on....what I am doing is about 1 of maybe 3 choices I could find

James what is a k3? is this a good camera to use as a test unit? how is the lens? can you send me a link to one forsale?

Just wondering,

Isn't there a lot of clipping in that girl's image? It looks very contrasty, which makes me wonder how many stops of dynamic range are you getting from that camera? It doesn't look like very many.

kinetta
 

hi everyone this is a link to the chip used in the kinetta.
http://www.altasens.com/technology.html

Okay.

Here is a really useless comment from a technological luddite. If frame rate from a single CMOS chip is a limitation, would a two way or three way prism split of the image onto two or three CMOS chips each down it's own processing path, ie., three computers and assembled sequentially onto a common path to come up with a continuous faster HD frame rate work?

Instead of having three CCDs, one each for three colour channels, have three channels, each for the same single chip colour image. - Just a thought.

no the limitation is your computer speed

Jason that is 8bit and shot by someone that knows nothing about shooting...I will just have to wait and see how it goes when I get the chip-camera-computer up and running

What is a K3
 

Krasnogorsk K3 16mm

A Russian made wind up 16mm camera. But not a toy! A bit ugly but no more so than some other cameras.

I got it because you can do stop motion animation with it. The windup gives stable 24fps for around 30seconds. The optics are fairly nice with a zoom prime. The reflex viewer gives a fairly bright image.


I think it would be a good test bed and the price is very cheap.

This camera is routinely used in a lot of film schools.





Super16 and Academy Aperture 16mm

The standard 16mm aperture is 7.5 x 10.4mm, giving an area of 78mm square.
The Super 16 aperture is 7.5 x 12.4mm, giving an area of 93mm square.
Therefore Super 16 gives an total image area 20% larger when the full apertures are compared in their original aspect ratios.

Does anybody know about this new Final Cut Pro HD? It claims 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed 1080p at 90-160 MBps via PCI transport . . . and from SOFTWARE alone (No additional hardware)?

I'm not sure I buy this. I will say that if it does what it claims, it would limit the 4:4:4 idea, but sure gives us enough for Hollywood level acquisition.

Somebody tell me what I'm missing here:

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/

how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI??
 

how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI??

There are two kids of tracking 2D and 3D. 2D is independent of the optics/CCD configuration so no problems there.

If you are going to composite a 3D object into a 2D (video) scene then you'll need a matchmoving program. Matchmover and Bijou are the two biggest ones out there. They have modules that make short work of this.

Hand match moving, really isn't possible in a production environment unless you limit what is going on, no zooming, and try to limit movement to X & Y. Also the camera would best be mounted on a nodal camera mount if you plan to pan or tilt.

So you're planning to use the Hughes HD CMOS chip?

I have a schematic for a mounting board
I have talked a lot with the people at AJA about the interface and they have had it up and running using the JVC HD-10u
I have the schematic, parts list and could get together the artwork for a mechanical shutter to get rid of your rolling shutter problem.

james I am not sure what your talking about...I am using a Micron chip on a board camera that will be fitted into the back of a 16mm film camera

what does it mean
 

James,
Please elaborate on the "they have had it up and running using the JVC HD-10u" statement.

These parts don't snap together like LEGO, and tightly integrated consumer products like the JVC don't lend themselves to just swapping out a sensor. Am I missing something here? Were they JVC engineers with access to the firmware source code for the JVC so they could get somewhere ?
I don't want to sound brash, but I've been down this road many a time with people that turned out to be kooks.
-Les

Update:

got the 16mm K3 camera on order from overseas...hope this baby works out..it's a nice cheap film cam to tearup and test with ! god I have learned so much about digital, like the fact that anything over 8bit you can have so much control over in post for the "look" you want for the project..it's just amazing what can be done with uncompressed high dynamic range images! Making me take a 2nd look at how I shoot my Canon 10d that is for sure! NEVER shoothing anything but RAW from hear on out! ...can't wait to have this type of control over moving pictures!

These parts don't snap together like LEGO
 

Obin,

I just hadn't seen what you intended to use, sorry to be off topic. It's just that others here on the boards are very cryptic about their hardware.

I'm sure they have their reasons, but the projects here that have done best have been the ones that are the most open. ie. all the 35mm to DV adapter ideas.


Les,

This boarad really has it's share of attitude... and experts. No one here is an expert. We're all dabbling. It hardly seems fit to call the uninformed kooks.

Eat the hay spit out the sticks.

What the guys over at AJA HAVE DONE is to take a signal off the CCD board with the Model HD10A - HDTV 10-bit Analog to Digital Converter. http://www.aja.com/hd10a.htm

Anyone can do this, it isn't rocket science. The signals all still go to the tape transport so you can record in uncompressed video with the AJA and onto tape with mpeg2 compression. You would also be able to tape the audio in this way.

The camera is controlled just as before. Either of the JVC HD prosumer cameras will work.

The real question is how do you have all this crap: a laptop and hot swappable HDDs hanging off your camera and still use it. Some have integrated these all together and this board isn't the first to introduce this novel idea.

I'll try to post the link to a site on Monday where a guy took an existing PAL 3 chip box camera, and captured the signal off the main board streight to HDD. Not what we want but a forerunner.

LEGOs,

Building a camera system IS a bit like LEGOs. Every subsystem in a camera is rather self contained. Optics|CCD with supporting electronics| video recording. The specs on each subsystem really is determined by what you can afford, does it "go" together (ie doesn't do much good to put Zeiss optics with a low rez CCD), does it exist.

Sure, the big boys have integrated the subsystems. Much to the dislike of many. The problem with most prosumer cameras is that they are integrated in order to make them "consumer friendly"

For example, they make the aperture and shutter controlled by the firmware only. Not where you have access to BOTH the aperture and the shutter speed at the same time.

Integration BAD. Manual Good.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=25705

the above thread shows where some others have been already with real working cameras.

Re: These parts don't snap together like LEGO
 

I looked at the ada link you posted, but all I see is a converter that takes analog inputs from the JVC and converts that to SDI or whatever. Unfortunately, the analog coming from the camera is already 'chopped' in the dynamic range, as in the whites and blacks being clipped. Whats the point of that?
so,

Is there a different link to the development that takes the 10 bit digitized ccd signal from the JVC chip and presents that to the outside world?

The reason JVC left out the full manual controls,btw, is to cripple the camera a bit. It's intentional, and not a result of the integration or design limitations. It's a bit frustrating that the JVC has a bunch of still camera functions built in, which surely takes up quite a bit of firmware code, and no manual controls, and no zebra stripes on the viewfinder. It's all marketing.
I hope a grass roots raw digital camera knock them off there tightly controlled market pedestal!

-Les

guys here is the problem, untill I find someone who writes CODE I am stuck...this camera outputs NOTHING like VIDEO or any SMPTE standard, it outputs FRAMES..so untill I find someone who can write a program that fits on some standalone board that will take the "frame" info and turn it into "video" for somthing like the AJA to "capture" I will have to use the computer with cameralink software...anyone have an idea who could help build such a subsystem?

what needs to be done:

cameralink output needs to turn into "video"

and cameralink control needs to work with something besides a computer...a standalone device...

Why do you want 'video' ?
With more than 8 bits ( the whole reason to do this ? ) you want frames anyway. Feature films are finished with frames as a digital source, not video.
-Les

I'll have to agree with this one. Turning the cameralink data into video kind of ruins the who reason for recording on such a high-output device.

BTW, you wouldn't happen to have any frame-grabs that we can see the quality of the camera with?

glad to hear that...but I do need "video" for a monitor out don't I?

I don't have a problem with frames BUT I need some sort of semi-realtime way to compress the frames for storage..I may be shooting a Feature with this camera soon if all goes well I and am wondering how in the world I'm going to deal with all the footage!

Re: how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI??
 

There are two kids of tracking 2D and 3D. 2D is independent of the optics/CCD configuration so no problems there.

um what about 3d tracking when you have to set the lens and film-back size? how will I deal with this when I am shooting with a 16mm lens and a 1/2inch chip with crop??

I too would like to see the AJA link on the HD10 stuff?

Now about programming a board to do what you want. A programmer/engineering from the video/camera sector would be best, as thy would know all the format requirements and technicals. But if you look through the threads in alternative imaging for homemade viper, Direct to disk for DVX 100, and my Homemade camera thead you find links to people who have done simualr work, andc an see what they used to do it.

I shouldn't mention this, but JVC used the Toas Intent VOS for the GRDV3000 (for the firmware I think), and so I wouldn't be surprised if they used it for the HD10, a bit of study, and lots of research (parts, circuits, and memory map), reverse engineering and you should be able to reprogram it.

http://tao-group.com/

Notice the DV3000:

http://tao-group.com/solutions/solutions.php

Here the DV3000. is shown running a game or something (I don't know exactly what it is haven't read it all):

http://withintent.biz/index2.php?Cat=7

It's list of partner links tells everything:

http://tao-group.com/partner_links/partner_links.php

Actually, if you could reprogram the DV3000, it might be possible to produce a close to 720i signal direct to disk off of it (with 5 lux lowlux), assuming most of the pixels were available to download live, and reprogram it's manual controlls. What's a secondhand DV3000 going for now days?

Wayne, do you know people that could do what I need?

No, not at the moment. I'm pretty far out of it, If I spent a year I could catch up with the programming.

Ask at www.sourceforge.com forums, they do a lot of openware projects. You could also try hunting around on the pro video forums (and av forums) (advertise) for somebody in the video industry. Some of the engineers that do this sort of work must hang out somewhere (but most probably wouldn't even be interested in replying). Next there is newsgroups for variouse professions and catergories.

Go through the links in the other threads, there was a link to a Russian guy that did a complete camera project in Programmable Silicon, as an Openware design. Here it is:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2441343146.html

http://www.elphel.com/

There is more links in the home made camera thread. In Linux devices and Window devices, there are also many processing boards listed, and in that community you have many hardware oriented people.

A word of warning is that: probably only 1 in 10, or 1 in 20, programmers are good enough to do a good job, but fortunately there would be a lot more in those communities. 1% will probably be able to do a good job in machine code (which should yield even better results).

These are my best suggestions.

Just re-read your initial post, go to the homemade Viper thread, in this forum, and look up all the links I suggested there for PC components etc. Linux devices (and I assume Windows Devices) should have links to a number of compact PC products. I will continue to attend the Viper project, as it has more lattitude for 35mm SLR lense adaptor, but we can learn from each other heaps. Any suggestions for sensors, etc, could also be posted there.


Thanks

Wayne.