Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

Wayne Morellini · September 18th, 2004, 08:07 AM

Marginly related to us, for those who are interested:

Disk based, high quality compression: Interesting that the new Ikegami Editcam HD Memory card/disk, camerea uses 4:1-20:1 Avid's DNxHD codec compression. (also new wireless, and slow motion HD anouncments).
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22670&issue=5

For those into slow motion capture
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22090&issue=1
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22091&issue=1
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22336&issue=3

Multiproicessing pci-x encoding card:
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22647&issue=4

Avid HD architechture
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22204&issue=2
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22559&issue=5

Filip Kovcin · September 19th, 2004, 12:23 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini :
...
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22670&issue=5

For those into slow motion capture
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22090&issue=1
...
wayne,
i was on the ibc. that ikegami camera (first photo/link) is just a mockup. the guys are maybe working on this in labs, but not on the show. there were no possibility to do anything with that camera, exept to say how nice it looks. it's just a box with lenses, but not working model at all.

second link (with bandpro camera) is a different story. that camera works!and works marvelous! i saw the footage and it looks unbelivable. 1000 fps. this is THE camera. cannot say about the price for it, but i know that in germany is possible to rent it approx for 2500 euro (about 2800 us$) for a day!
but for those who need this - it's a must. quiet, fast, uses film pl mount lenses
cmos is little smaller than 35mm frame, but you really cannot see that. very interesting.

filip

Wayne Morellini · September 19th, 2004, 07:13 PM

There is also another 2MP 4:3 one based on a custom Fillfactory chip (who recently got bought out by Cypress Semiconductor) called the Phantom. Capable of doing 1000 fps, at 2MP. (needs to be converted to 1080, but should look spectacular anyway).

http://www.visiblesolutions.com/phantomv9.html

Were you talking about the editcam3, it is allready price listing (TBA) on the internet, so maybe it is not too far away? It is just a curiosity for us as a competitor anyway, like Kinneta.

Wayne Morellini · September 19th, 2004, 07:45 PM

This is curiouse, a new Nikon still camera that will do 5fps @ 12.4MPixel RAW, but 21FPS as Jpegs, $3900 Jan 2005. I wonder how fast it would go at quarter the res? I have an article around here predicting that digital still cameras will do 1.3MP video by 2006, it looks like they might be able to do that a lot sooner (but whould anybody dare, 21fps, is conviently not 24fps).

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...16_124853.html

I'll have to look for more details latter.

Thanks

Wayne.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · September 20th, 2004, 01:39 AM

That Phantom camera costs around 100K with 4 GB of memory, don't need to tell you how much it goes with a capture system ,right?

Wayne Morellini · September 20th, 2004, 07:23 PM

Good, just illustrates what the competition is doing (and that it would cost us 10-20K, if add up the parts, to do the same).

Jacques Mersereau · September 20th, 2004, 07:52 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin :
second link (with bandpro camera) is a different story. that camera works!and works marvelous! i saw the footage and it looks unbelivable. 1000 fps. this is THE camera. cannot say about the price for it, but i know that in germany is possible to rent it approx for 2500 euro (about 2800 us$) for a day!
but for those who need this - it's a must. quiet, fast, uses film pl mount lenses
cmos is little smaller than 35mm frame, but you really cannot see that. very interesting.

filip -->>>

I saw an ad for that camera and it costs $160,000.00.
I saw some of the footage at NAB, and it did look
*excellent*. They even had it hooked up and running, but to do
high speed they had a 575W HMI about 6 inches from the object
that was wrapped with foil. Now that's bright!

Aaron Shaw · September 20th, 2004, 08:33 PM

So anyone know a good way to win the lottery ;) ?

Wayne Morellini · September 21st, 2004, 05:19 AM

You could allways pay for it by making a hit movie like Starwars, it's more likely than winning the lottery ;)

Wayne Morellini · September 21st, 2004, 06:05 AM

I've been advised of this impressive general Indie HD site:

http://www.hdforindies.com/

Notice the 1.8terabyte Raid system for $3295. Too, much for the present cameras, but impressive for some people.

Also note the costings analysis of his proposed HD editing system solutions.

He mention something called "SoftRAID formatting software" and says you will need it. Must be some software raid system that might be worth studying.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · September 21st, 2004, 12:52 PM

Wayne,
To do the same as the Phantom you would need just over 10,000 just for the FG.
I guess a complete system for such a thing would cost a minimum starting from 30,000 (but it´s going to be a bulky one)

Wayne Morellini · September 21st, 2004, 08:14 PM

OK, I don't want to argue, I should not have said "make it the same" but making a cheap slow motion camera (upto what a good PCI-X camerlink card system will take. I think it can (eventually, in a year or two after we have suceeded with the current project and prices drop a bit), but without figures infront of me I should not have said that. So sorry for that.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · September 21st, 2004, 09:00 PM

No, really don't take it personal.
It is just a high sppeed sensor outputs so much data that for anything above 1280x720 and 500 or more frames you can't use a normal FG on a Pc, and that kind of FG cost around 10k.Just that ;)

Rob Lohman · September 22nd, 2004, 02:08 AM

Netgear gigabit pcmcia network card

Wayne Morellini · September 22nd, 2004, 08:54 AM

Thanks Jaun,

I just realised, my original comment with costing, about doing that slow motion after we finished the main project (i.e. one or two years), must have been deleted during pre-editing. I was wondering what was going on, sorry.

Have found out the Fillfactory slow motion sensor is $800, I thought it was a lot more. Jaun, out of curiosity, how much would you say that a 250fps slow motion format 1MP 720p system would be (should be enough for 4 drive raid? If somebody made the camera for $2-3K, and used a PCIX Frame Grabber card of at least 266MB/s? I view slow motion as very specialist, short shots that could be buffered in memory and sent out to disk after. Is there any need beyond that in real world cinema applications?

P.S. When I say I don't want to argue, I wasn't really being offended or annoyed, just not wanting to get side tracked into a big debate.

Thanks

Wayne.

September 19th, 2004, 07:45 PM	#139
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Close This is curiouse, a new Nikon still camera that will do 5fps @ 12.4MPixel RAW, but 21FPS as Jpegs, $3900 Jan 2005. I wonder how fast it would go at quarter the res? I have an article around here predicting that digital still cameras will do 1.3MP video by 2006, it looks like they might be able to do that a lot sooner (but whould anybody dare, 21fps, is conviently not 24fps). http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...16_124853.html I'll have to look for more details latter. Thanks Wayne.

September 20th, 2004, 07:52 PM	#142
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : second link (with bandpro camera) is a different story. that camera works!and works marvelous! i saw the footage and it looks unbelivable. 1000 fps. this is THE camera. cannot say about the price for it, but i know that in germany is possible to rent it approx for 2500 euro (about 2800 us$) for a day! but for those who need this - it's a must. quiet, fast, uses film pl mount lenses cmos is little smaller than 35mm frame, but you really cannot see that. very interesting. filip -->>> I saw an ad for that camera and it costs $160,000.00. I saw some of the footage at NAB, and it did look excellent. They even had it hooked up and running, but to do high speed they had a 575W HMI about 6 inches from the object that was wrapped with foil. Now that's bright! __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

September 22nd, 2004, 02:08 AM	#149
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Netgear gigabit pcmcia network card __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 18th, 2004, 08:07 AM	#136
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Marginly related to us, for those who are interested: Disk based, high quality compression: Interesting that the new Ikegami Editcam HD Memory card/disk, camerea uses 4:1-20:1 Avid's DNxHD codec compression. (also new wireless, and slow motion HD anouncments). http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22670&issue=5 For those into slow motion capture http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22090&issue=1 http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22091&issue=1 http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22336&issue=3 Multiproicessing pci-x encoding card: http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22647&issue=4 Avid HD architechture http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22204&issue=2 http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22559&issue=5

September 19th, 2004, 12:23 AM	#137
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : ... http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22670&issue=5 For those into slow motion capture http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22090&issue=1 ... wayne, i was on the ibc. that ikegami camera (first photo/link) is just a mockup. the guys are maybe working on this in labs, but not on the show. there were no possibility to do anything with that camera, exept to say how nice it looks. it's just a box with lenses, but not working model at all. second link (with bandpro camera) is a different story. that camera works!and works marvelous! i saw the footage and it looks unbelivable. 1000 fps. this is THE camera. cannot say about the price for it, but i know that in germany is possible to rent it approx for 2500 euro (about 2800 us$) for a day! but for those who need this - it's a must. quiet, fast, uses film pl mount lenses cmos is little smaller than 35mm frame, but you really cannot see that. very interesting. filip

September 19th, 2004, 07:13 PM	#138
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	There is also another 2MP 4:3 one based on a custom Fillfactory chip (who recently got bought out by Cypress Semiconductor) called the Phantom. Capable of doing 1000 fps, at 2MP. (needs to be converted to 1080, but should look spectacular anyway). http://www.visiblesolutions.com/phantomv9.html Were you talking about the editcam3, it is allready price listing (TBA) on the internet, so maybe it is not too far away? It is just a curiosity for us as a competitor anyway, like Kinneta.

September 20th, 2004, 01:39 AM	#140
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	That Phantom camera costs around 100K with 4 GB of memory, don't need to tell you how much it goes with a capture system ,right?

September 20th, 2004, 07:23 PM	#141
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Good, just illustrates what the competition is doing (and that it would cost us 10-20K, if add up the parts, to do the same).

September 20th, 2004, 08:33 PM	#143
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	So anyone know a good way to win the lottery ;) ?

September 21st, 2004, 05:19 AM	#144
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	You could allways pay for it by making a hit movie like Starwars, it's more likely than winning the lottery ;)

September 21st, 2004, 06:05 AM	#145
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I've been advised of this impressive general Indie HD site: http://www.hdforindies.com/ Notice the 1.8terabyte Raid system for $3295. Too, much for the present cameras, but impressive for some people. Also note the costings analysis of his proposed HD editing system solutions. He mention something called "SoftRAID formatting software" and says you will need it. Must be some software raid system that might be worth studying.

September 21st, 2004, 12:52 PM	#146
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Wayne, To do the same as the Phantom you would need just over 10,000 just for the FG. I guess a complete system for such a thing would cost a minimum starting from 30,000 (but it´s going to be a bulky one)

September 21st, 2004, 08:14 PM	#147
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	OK, I don't want to argue, I should not have said "make it the same" but making a cheap slow motion camera (upto what a good PCI-X camerlink card system will take. I think it can (eventually, in a year or two after we have suceeded with the current project and prices drop a bit), but without figures infront of me I should not have said that. So sorry for that.

September 21st, 2004, 09:00 PM	#148
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	No, really don't take it personal. It is just a high sppeed sensor outputs so much data that for anything above 1280x720 and 500 or more frames you can't use a normal FG on a Pc, and that kind of FG cost around 10k.Just that ;)

September 22nd, 2004, 08:54 AM	#150
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Thanks Jaun, I just realised, my original comment with costing, about doing that slow motion after we finished the main project (i.e. one or two years), must have been deleted during pre-editing. I was wondering what was going on, sorry. Have found out the Fillfactory slow motion sensor is $800, I thought it was a lot more. Jaun, out of curiosity, how much would you say that a 250fps slow motion format 1MP 720p system would be (should be enough for 4 drive raid? If somebody made the camera for $2-3K, and used a PCIX Frame Grabber card of at least 266MB/s? I view slow motion as very specialist, short shots that could be buffered in memory and sent out to disk after. Is there any need beyond that in real world cinema applications? P.S. When I say I don't want to argue, I wasn't really being offended or annoyed, just not wanting to get side tracked into a big debate. Thanks Wayne.