Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

Wayne Morellini · October 14th, 2004, 12:03 AM

Have you seen this one:

http://preview.millimeter.com/mag/vi...ng_collateral/

Good shooting info. They used 35mm for interior and daylight scenes, Viper cab and night, F900 (I think for running around).

Wayne Morellini · October 15th, 2004, 01:17 AM

Juan, as you know about these things, I would like to talk with you about Collateral.

The print in the local cinema was good. Most things looked fine in it, but everytime something moved on the digital shoots it was hard to see what was happening. Did they shoot in 60i/30p and try to do a poor de-interlace or something (or was it just a 24th/s shutter)? The digital camera in the cab was not isolated from the vibration and shock of the cab (or in moving scenes) so this made the problem worse.

The look is good, almost real, except there is too much of a blue tint. And inside the cab there is also a strong green tint (probably caused by the flat panel lighting they used) was this a deliberate colour correction style chioce.

Otherwise great movie (except usuual unrealistic story line) with and ironic ending. Liked the look of the Viper (except they made it look too handycam) compared to 900. Impeccable performance by Cruize (and James), but most of it was lost due to vibration and movement problems above (hope they clean it up for special, non-carsick, version).

Jason Rodriguez · October 15th, 2004, 01:31 AM

They used an open shutter (1/24th of a second), so that's where the blurry motion came from. This was to gain an extra stop of light without trying to boost the gain.

Wayne Morellini · October 15th, 2004, 01:55 AM

I thought it might be, but the movement looked broken up as well as blurred. It was 24th/s at 24fps, not something strange like 24th/s at 48i/50i/60i? I also noticed on one scene that lamposts had an even large ghost edge both sides around the hard edges (not like being out of focus).

Rai Orz · October 15th, 2004, 08:23 AM

It is just a CCD and not a CMOS...

And they wonted a Video-look. But i think most of us wont more a movie-look

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · October 15th, 2004, 11:04 AM

I think most of the problems you mention come from a heavy/poor noise reduction filtering.I heard they had a hard time because of noise.
In many night shots you can see clearly the underexposure noise.

I mention this because if you pay attention you could notice the actors faces have some kind of "wax dummy" look.That denotes the use of some heavy filtering.

I made a whole movie using 1/24 shutter (completely at night without any more lighting than the streets one) and it doesn't look the same...
The ghosts you talk about could be an optical artifact, a filtering problem, or anything.I don't remember them,sorry.

I guess it was 24 fps 1/24s.
Anyway you could use interlaced combined with 1/24s to gain another stop.I know the Viper isn't so sensitive so They could have done anything :)

The color tints should be an aesthetic issue cause it is completely correctable in post.

Joshua Starnes · October 15th, 2004, 11:36 AM

Otherwise great movie (except usuual unrealistic story line) with and ironic ending. Liked the look of the Viper (except they made it look too handycam) compared to 900.

The Viper and 900 aren't really close enough to compare, the Viper is much better. The Viper and the 950, that's a much closer comparison.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · October 15th, 2004, 06:05 PM

Why do you say that?
What are you based on?

Laurence Maher · October 16th, 2004, 05:03 AM

Hey Ben,

What model was the camera you said summix finished recently? Do you have the specs and capture method?

Thanks!

Wayne Morellini · October 17th, 2004, 08:36 AM

Joshua, they used Viper, 900 and film, and tried to match the Viper and 900 in look. I was just comparing the Viper shoots with the surrounding 900 shoots (still a difference even after being matched).

Wayne Morellini · October 17th, 2004, 08:37 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn : I mention this because if you pay attention you could notice the actors faces have some kind of "wax dummy" look.That denotes the use of some heavy filtering.
..
The color tints should be an aesthetic issue cause it is completely correctable in post. -->>>

Thanks, I thought that was because of the limited light frequencies and tint that these flat panels give. I have many dark friends, but I have never seen somebody with green tinted skin.

Rai

I think they wrecked it a bit with the video look. With some very expensive long DSP processing they could clean it up. I think they should have gone for bright (outside, video like) film look (and isolated those .. cameras from shock and vibration). I would have given the film a near clkassic ratign if they did.

Just saw another film "All Men Are Liars" on TV last night, shot around 80km from where I live (used to work there at the research station) great country flavour (except they used a number of major city actors and themes). This is the sort of low budget film I think we can shoot as independents, one of the funniest I've seen for a while.

Thanks

Wayne.

Joshua Starnes · October 17th, 2004, 12:55 PM

Why do you say that?
What are you based on?

There are a couple of differences in how they work and store data. The color space of the cameras. The Viper was the first HD camera to do true 4:4:4 color space. The 950 was the first CineAlta to do so. The Viper had better latitude than the 900 as well.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · October 17th, 2004, 10:31 PM

Ok, thank you :)

Laurence Maher · October 21st, 2004, 03:11 AM

Does ANYONE know what the recent 24p HD sumix model is and how I get a hold of specs? Can't find it on the site, but read on this thread one came out recently that's at least pretty good for what we want with digital cinematography.

thanks.

Wayne Morellini · October 21st, 2004, 11:47 PM

It is coming out according to the info. Ringing/emailing them is probably the best move. Tell them where your comming from, mention Steve I (not Steve N, he's their competition) and Ben's name, and off you go. I've been meaning to establish contact with them for months myself, never seem to get around to it.

Wayne.

October 14th, 2004, 12:03 AM	#211
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Have you seen this one: http://preview.millimeter.com/mag/vi...ng_collateral/ Good shooting info. They used 35mm for interior and daylight scenes, Viper cab and night, F900 (I think for running around).

October 15th, 2004, 01:17 AM	#212
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Juan, as you know about these things, I would like to talk with you about Collateral. The print in the local cinema was good. Most things looked fine in it, but everytime something moved on the digital shoots it was hard to see what was happening. Did they shoot in 60i/30p and try to do a poor de-interlace or something (or was it just a 24th/s shutter)? The digital camera in the cab was not isolated from the vibration and shock of the cab (or in moving scenes) so this made the problem worse. The look is good, almost real, except there is too much of a blue tint. And inside the cab there is also a strong green tint (probably caused by the flat panel lighting they used) was this a deliberate colour correction style chioce. Otherwise great movie (except usuual unrealistic story line) with and ironic ending. Liked the look of the Viper (except they made it look too handycam) compared to 900. Impeccable performance by Cruize (and James), but most of it was lost due to vibration and movement problems above (hope they clean it up for special, non-carsick, version).

October 15th, 2004, 01:31 AM	#213
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	They used an open shutter (1/24th of a second), so that's where the blurry motion came from. This was to gain an extra stop of light without trying to boost the gain.

October 15th, 2004, 01:55 AM	#214
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I thought it might be, but the movement looked broken up as well as blurred. It was 24th/s at 24fps, not something strange like 24th/s at 48i/50i/60i? I also noticed on one scene that lamposts had an even large ghost edge both sides around the hard edges (not like being out of focus).

October 15th, 2004, 08:23 AM	#215
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	It is just a CCD and not a CMOS... And they wonted a Video-look. But i think most of us wont more a movie-look

October 15th, 2004, 11:04 AM	#216
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	I think most of the problems you mention come from a heavy/poor noise reduction filtering.I heard they had a hard time because of noise. In many night shots you can see clearly the underexposure noise. I mention this because if you pay attention you could notice the actors faces have some kind of "wax dummy" look.That denotes the use of some heavy filtering. I made a whole movie using 1/24 shutter (completely at night without any more lighting than the streets one) and it doesn't look the same... The ghosts you talk about could be an optical artifact, a filtering problem, or anything.I don't remember them,sorry. I guess it was 24 fps 1/24s. Anyway you could use interlaced combined with 1/24s to gain another stop.I know the Viper isn't so sensitive so They could have done anything :) The color tints should be an aesthetic issue cause it is completely correctable in post.

October 15th, 2004, 11:36 AM	#217
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	Otherwise great movie (except usuual unrealistic story line) with and ironic ending. Liked the look of the Viper (except they made it look too handycam) compared to 900. The Viper and 900 aren't really close enough to compare, the Viper is much better. The Viper and the 950, that's a much closer comparison.

October 15th, 2004, 06:05 PM	#218
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Why do you say that? What are you based on?

October 16th, 2004, 05:03 AM	#219
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Hey Ben, What model was the camera you said summix finished recently? Do you have the specs and capture method? Thanks!

October 17th, 2004, 08:36 AM	#220
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Joshua, they used Viper, 900 and film, and tried to match the Viper and 900 in look. I was just comparing the Viper shoots with the surrounding 900 shoots (still a difference even after being matched).

October 17th, 2004, 08:37 AM	#221
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn : I mention this because if you pay attention you could notice the actors faces have some kind of "wax dummy" look.That denotes the use of some heavy filtering. .. The color tints should be an aesthetic issue cause it is completely correctable in post. -->>> Thanks, I thought that was because of the limited light frequencies and tint that these flat panels give. I have many dark friends, but I have never seen somebody with green tinted skin. Rai I think they wrecked it a bit with the video look. With some very expensive long DSP processing they could clean it up. I think they should have gone for bright (outside, video like) film look (and isolated those .. cameras from shock and vibration). I would have given the film a near clkassic ratign if they did. Just saw another film "All Men Are Liars" on TV last night, shot around 80km from where I live (used to work there at the research station) great country flavour (except they used a number of major city actors and themes). This is the sort of low budget film I think we can shoot as independents, one of the funniest I've seen for a while. Thanks Wayne.

October 17th, 2004, 12:55 PM	#222
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	Why do you say that? What are you based on? There are a couple of differences in how they work and store data. The color space of the cameras. The Viper was the first HD camera to do true 4:4:4 color space. The 950 was the first CineAlta to do so. The Viper had better latitude than the 900 as well.

October 17th, 2004, 10:31 PM	#223
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Ok, thank you :)

October 21st, 2004, 03:11 AM	#224
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Does ANYONE know what the recent 24p HD sumix model is and how I get a hold of specs? Can't find it on the site, but read on this thread one came out recently that's at least pretty good for what we want with digital cinematography. thanks.

October 21st, 2004, 11:47 PM	#225
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	It is coming out according to the info. Ringing/emailing them is probably the best move. Tell them where your comming from, mention Steve I (not Steve N, he's their competition) and Ben's name, and off you go. I've been meaning to establish contact with them for months myself, never seem to get around to it. Wayne.