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Old June 14th, 2005, 07:13 AM   #391
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Rather than use expensive HDSDI, can just use good inexpensive DAC? Would signal be usable for compression and recording?


Maybe SI or Summix can make nice interface to computer. They could make lot more money than selling cameras.

Radek
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Old June 14th, 2005, 08:21 AM   #392
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I don't know exactly what Sumix is doing, but I think some computer capture solution is needed.

The problem with the ADC, is that somebody needs to make it, cheap. You see all that problem with making capture software. Now the suggestion of the VIA CN400 chipset with HD video input port and, hopefully, recording solution maybe possible (considering future 2Ghz processor, and dual processor systems, but maybe VIA build in hardware recording solution, don't know). But maybe that Component to Ethernet CAT5 adaptor will pay off. But this is up in the air and may not work, and may need work. So a ready made cheap solution would be better, if anybody knows of any. If all else fails, capture device maybe able to be made to work with free capturing software.

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Old June 14th, 2005, 08:57 AM   #393
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Dear Wayne

for the Sony Cam
would an technical manual be of some use ??

I do mean what do they have for data before they do compression ?

I don't think that they invent the real and that their CMOS pumps out
what an Altasens would do. So why not get the data out and generate AVI
maybe...
Component out would go to HDSDI or so but anyway not cheap
and a dead end.
The best thing on world is the new Quicktime and the fantastic codec now de-facto standard for Streaming and Digital TV.
Merci Apple. Cinarella is HD ready and Quicktime can run ..... I do guess
2006 Apple goes to Intel hardware Mac OS will run anywhere soon so FC will do too...remember on SGI 320 SGI with PC hardware Linux of anyflavour runs fine...only Windows stucks there due to some strange driver problems
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Old June 14th, 2005, 10:17 AM   #394
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Don't quiet get you but, we don't know the details of what is before compression yet, a vector scope and some testing would reveal all. The advantage is nice, cheaper auto/manual doco camera, with detailed uncompressed output. Not best camera, but descent for doco and low end production (with adaptor). I doubt that the chip pumps out as good as Altasens, maybe closer to 1/3inch Altasens, but better than normal CCD. With licensing we don't know what technology they are using. Sony been against CMOS manufacture, they are setup for CCD, I wonder if this chip design is outsourced. That is why I think that the output looks 1/2inch to 2/3 inch CCD chip, much better than PD150. But I think the brochure is indicating maybe dual slope capability, which would be why it looks better than expected. So I would expect half that of Altasens, with terrible low light performance in comparison). In optimal lighting condition CCD might look similar to CMOS, but when things get tough then we see. Also optimal lighting condition for one camera might be different for other. So use optimal range for Altasens on F900, and then we see, same with this chip, but more so in low light. There are many compromises in HC1, that would make me prefer JVCHD100, but on price it is a good compromise.

New QT H264 Codec, this is high compression, do they do lossless version?

But now, we talk about what to get component into something that can cheaply record uncompressed.

Look here, we talking about the issues, over at HC1 forum:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=45963

Here we are talking frame grabs:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=45279

Here we are brochure links:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=45731

See this part of the Sony A1J brochure, rough translation in the HDVforever site:
Quote:
It loads " new backlight revision function ". The bright part only the that way, dark part raising gain, lightens the black collapsing. It divides the image signal into the information " of the design " and " brightness ". " Brightness " information is analyzed, the bright part doing that way, only the dark part makes the brightness component raise, by the fact that it recombines with design information, the part where also the bright part is dark, can obtain the image which it reproduces to real.
Interesting Cineform Capture thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=40387
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Old June 14th, 2005, 01:29 PM   #395
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Sony does not outsource CMOS design. They have world's largest image sensor R&D group. Canon makes own CMOS too but is not yet able to accomplish frame rate that Sony can. Only Sony so far capable make quality CMOS for video cameras. Eventually CMOS will be more light sensitive than CCD. As of now is not.

Radek
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Old June 15th, 2005, 02:50 AM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Biese
The best thing on world is the new Quicktime and the fantastic codec now de-facto standard for Streaming and Digital TV.
Merci Apple.
This has nothing to do with Apple ! they didn't invent anything, H264 is the new MPEG4 standard (part 10) of the MPEG.
Their implementation is far from beeing the best, it wasn't even the first, they doesn't even have High Profile, and it's already beaten by the only opensource version around here, x264. And the currently best codec for H264 is the Ateme/Ahead version (which i'm going to beta-test :). They offer a lossless mode, and i'm going to test that thoroughly.

more information : http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=73022
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Old June 15th, 2005, 02:55 AM   #397
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Dear Steve

Fine
great
I do know that, even I do have an old eMac
I'm much more Unix, Linux and have to be Windofs as Apple Freak

but..... fine You are the beta tester of a new codec...fine
Opensource great to me
and please tell me wher to look,
to have hands on ?????????????
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Old June 15th, 2005, 09:34 AM   #398
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Radek:

I have seen spec sheets for astronomical CCD's, they would probably be the best CCD's for low light. Can you supply the well capacity, SN and QE on the sensors you are speaking about, or sensor information links for comparison?

The Altasens has very good SN and probably still the best QE in the industry, which determine Sensor low light ability. The Lens also determines camera low light ability, so the same lens needs to be used for comparison. I think the new Altasens maybe twice as good as previous best video CMOS, but a number of these may not even be on the video camera side of the market yet.


Steve:

What lossless compression ratio can the new codec achieve?
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Old June 15th, 2005, 11:52 AM   #399
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PSP Preview & camera:

I got to have a feel of the new Playstation portable, the demo unit just came in the local store. Wow, haven't really felt like that since I bought my first Atari Lynx. Pretty awesome machine. The LCD is pretty good, but refresh a little slow.

Since my posts about PSP Camera project history and suggestion were removed, I'll repeat some of the information here.

I was planning on doing a RAW, Lossless or Visually Lossless PSP Camera. But as I couldn't get the right team together, was terribly sick, and Sony were a little reluctant, I had to give it up. Now I have other projects to concentrate on. So I decided to reveal the project as a suggestion somebody else may like to pickup.

The PSP is a mighty powerful little machine (If programmed properly, preferably most inner processing loops in proper machine code, and anything else that may cause pauses in execution, so only for good programmers). It has dual 300Mhz+ processor, I think one might be integrated with full or part DSP circuit (can't remember the details). Perfect for SD or even 720p footage. Put it this way, more powerful than the Playstation 2.

Now the problems: Interfaces are limited. One USB Slave (where their camera and extras go into), at least one card port, and one custom interface port. So connecting a camera and a Hard drive at the same time would be a challenge. I doubt that the USB canbe made to connect to a hub splitter with data being read in and sent out to the drive (but I don't know). This will probably would mean making a custom interface circuit on the card or the interface port. If the camera head recorded directly to drive instead, PSP could be made to be viewer and control. They have temporarily locked the processors back closer to 200Mhz to preserve batter life. It is a surprisingly heavy thing. The only independent home-brew software works on the limited number of early Japanese units with version 1 of the firmware, all other versions don't work yet. I understand they are planning to force users to update the firmware (live update) before they can run certain games. This way they maybe able to keep independent development out.

There is psp development information at the PSP forum on:
http://ps2dev.org/

This links to the Home-brew PC development system for the PS2, I am not aware if there is a PSP version yet.


These details maybe inaccurate, as it has been a longtime since I read the data. Verify if you need to.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Some Sums:

1280*720 24p=22.1184MB/s
or 2:1 compressed=11.0592MB/s
or 4:1 Visually lossless (for instance Cineform Bayer) compressed=5.5296MB/s
(this is pushing processing a bit (for instance Cineform is very intensive) but I don't know what it is like with new DSP functionality)


Interfaces:
USB 2.0=50+MB/s
So feasible for HDD and Camera, only if USB splittable for dual use.

Custom interface:
I don't know, assume a lot.

Memory card (is there a compatible memory card to IDE interface):
I forget, I think some version of this card go upto 16MB/s.
So potentially feasible for compressed data.


Lets looks at Foveon X3, or three chip:
640*480 24p (you can probably go upto near 720*360 24p wide cinema format). If a three chip was used with 1/3rd pixel shift, you could get a theoretical 1920*1440 resolution after filtering upscaling. =22.1184MB/s
or 2:1 compressed=11.0592MB/s
or 6:1 Visually lossless Cineform compressed 3 chip=1.8432MB/s
(this is not recommended, processing, and the visually lossless may not be designed for this).

New, single, 1.8th inch drives might be able to handle 2:1 compression. The largest is supposed to have 90GB, which is plenty, but I don't know about fastest sustainable write rate.

It is possible that much greater than 2:1 lossless can be achieved, there are new codecs claiming much. I suggest nuking the sensor noise in the image, as it is not part of the original image anyway, but electrical errors.

So, interesting isn't it, of course none of us have time or money to work on it, or to go to PSP group and ask them.
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Old June 15th, 2005, 12:09 PM   #400
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Dear Wayne

as the PS3 has only... I do guess... 1 Firewire port that's no problem, as known to all I-Mac users that's one solution among many http://www.macuser.co.uk/macuser/rev...ewire-hub.html. What about Sumix and compressed Gige ? But that's another price range. Even the Sony 1800i will be cheaper, has controls and viewfinder, that's a plus. The Sony
either eith component or hopefully uncompressed out.
Sure you can dasychaine firewire drives, but if one goes dead all is dead, and on Windows with 200GB Maxtor 2x Windows tells you sometimes there is no data, Debian Linux told me there is only 2x a raw drive technical possibles but no good at all. Another device http://www.pcpro.co.uk/macuser/revie...ewire-hub.html. I can't wait to get hands on a PS3 and hope that the Linux diks will not be sold only to Japan as they did it last time.
I will talk to the Dynebolic people as they are the most crazy once ones.
Ronald
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Old June 15th, 2005, 01:19 PM   #401
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Latest PSP run homebrew

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...13_152813.html

Also talks about getting hard drive working through USB slave.

Chris is the guy from the development community, I think the one that did the PC development system for PS2.


Ronald:

PS3, I don't know about Firewire, there is 6 USB2.0 ports, and being a non PC this may work better. There is Gigbit Ethernet. So Sumix is credible if you want to pay for really good camera. I don't want to carry around PS3 for capture from low priced sensor. But eventually there maybe a small PSTwo like PS3.

--
Debian Linux told me there is only 2x a raw drive technical possibles but no good at all.
--

Can you clarify?

Last edited by Wayne Morellini; June 15th, 2005 at 10:42 PM. Reason: 6 USB ports
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Old June 15th, 2005, 02:41 PM   #402
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Dear Wayne

dasychaining frewire drives is technically possible but in real life a problem. Sometimes in Linux and Windows world they are shown as raw drives with no data found..
please have a look at this has global shutter and is from Germany
http://www.mikrotron.de/content/pdf/...h_05_02_01.pdf
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Old June 15th, 2005, 03:35 PM   #403
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found this

1920x1080 12 bit data 33fps imag processing with FGPA and 32 Risc
it's Impex IPX /2M30 HC LC
http://www.turnkey-solutions.com.au/...M30_series.htm

Cameralink base to GIGE
http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_1772.php

2352 x 1726 Cameralink base works with GIGE adapter at 24 fps
http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_1760.php

an old classic
http://www.turnkey-solutions.com.au/...ware_index.htm
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Old June 15th, 2005, 10:14 PM   #404
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Looks nice. Do you have prices?

This StreamPix, is that a new version from the previous one tried here? Is Silicon Imaging using this for there solution? You don't have to develop your own software, just lobby existing manufacturer to do a version for Pro video production. open source if you want something cheap.


I would be interested if that Cameralink to Gige is cheaper?

I think the PS3 might not have Firewire, there was talk it might have optical Firewire last year, but the released specs don't have it listed (yet). Don't like this push away from Firewire. USB is doing good, but they aren't including the hi-speed version. If the PS3 is designed properly the processing load from it should be minimal, otherwise, as long as it is handled by one of the processing units we should be fine.

But looking at the Specs it says:

"Communication
Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T) x 3 (input x 1 + output x 2)
Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11 b/g"

Does that mean there are three Ethernet, and how would you have input and output Ethernet?

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8720

Re-Edit:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05...y_unveils_ps3/

(see picture) Yes, it appears to have more than one Ethernet port, but what speeds, what is in/out mean? If this is some typo and they are all Gige Ethernet that gives us access to GigE Raid, and dual GigE Ethernet camera head ability (200MB/s packed, compress and 100MB/s save. Am I silly now.
---------

It appears that Revolution is trying to stick away from HD and might be twin 1.8Ghz Power PC. Small and capable, but I don't even know if it will have HD capable monitor port. They might as well have release a big version mid year, and a small version 2007.


Thanks

Wayne.
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Old June 15th, 2005, 10:38 PM   #405
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Better pictures:

http://news.spong.com/detail/assetVi...e=11&prid=8719

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8719

Yep, this makes me excited about PS3 as future PC, won't have to go to buy Apple from the cute girl down at the Apple shop :(

Pity they did not release OSX for the PS3 instead of Linux :( Steve could had charged $100 for each copy, I don't care about Linux, too many head aces.

Must point out again to readers, that the PS3 does about 218 GFLOPS floating point, but with Graphic Chip etc 1.8 TFLOPS. I think that 3.2Ghz Pent 4 is around 20-30 Gflop I think. So you should be able to use this for compression no problems, and higher speed cameras.
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