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Old June 28th, 2005, 02:16 AM   #436
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Too late.

Wayne, not to offer you legal advice, but once you publicly discuss an idea, it's no longer eligible for a patent in most countries (it's considered to be part of the "state of the art" once it's disclosed). In the US you have one year to patent your idea, but its value is questionable if you can't protect the idea in most other markets.

FYI, the cost of hiring a firm to patent an idea in an array of countries can range from about USD$100,000 to $500,000. I was told to figure around $10,000 - $15,000 per country.
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Old June 28th, 2005, 03:54 AM   #437
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Maybe not:

I am aware of most of that. What's known as a "boiler plate" clause.

But the reason I mention it is because I am not totally clear on the law with it's special provision to industry/technical publications (which this forum could be regarded as) that changes things a bit from a public declaration. In this regard it is not the same a s a public statement. I can't remember which way it cuts on this (too long ago) but just in case it still allowed somebody else to patent and tie up the ideas from others using it, I am trying to prevent that. If I am not going to use it I don't want somebody else tying it up.

The US has 50% of the world economy and with this industry you might be able to get 50% of your profits in that one market. If you patented in US, Europe, Australia and Japan you may probably have 95%+ (figuratively speaking not based on hard statistics) of the world HDTV market money potential. This is a little trick used to save heaps of money and hassle while get maximum returns. Depending on your local patent law (check first) it maybe used to exercise monopoly control on goods entering a country which then theoretically mean that it canbe used to control the market. But I am not trying to offer anybody legal advise here either. Under law it is something for them and a patent attorney to sort out, we are only theorising. I don't feel like forking out for an Patent attorney yet to fill me in on the details. Time enough for that latter. In this forum I am careful what I say, and generally only say those things I can afford to loose. Doing a pixel shifted VGA HD camera based on a multi thousand dollar camera is not the most marketable idea compared to the original $399 dollar camera.

I think you can find much cheaper firms than that, and doing it yourself maybe cheaper but may also be less effective.
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Old June 28th, 2005, 01:43 PM   #438
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Industry publications == "made public"

There are no special provisions for industry publications -- in fact, that's the worst place to make your "secret" ideas public, because they instantly become part of the state of the art. This forum certain counts as being "public."

Patenting in "Europe" is a little more complicated than it sounds -- you need a patent for each country. And the US is the only country I'm aware of that gives you time to patent your idea after it has been made public. Everywhere else, you're out of luck.

Honestly, patents are not worth it unless you anticipate making at least a million dollars from your idea. Otherwise, it's a massive and expensive waste of everyone's time. Believe me -- I've been down that road before.

Patenting an idea yourself is simply not feasible if you want to cover more than one country. Patent claims need to be worded extremely carefully -- are you willing to spend a few months learning the ins and outs of each country's system? Patent attorneys know what will fly, what will hold up, and what aspects of the idea to patent. I don't recommend "going it alone."
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Old June 28th, 2005, 09:22 PM   #439
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Ben, I'll speak in a basic manner that is less confusing to other people who lurk around here, as there is a public perception that patenting in an easy, affordable panacea, for inventors woes, rather than like a highly expensively piece of paper to people without money, that much less than 1% of poor inventors make money off of. I am wondering how a few people with projects here (a number hidden in the background) are going to go with patent issues. Practically it is one thing to do Open Source, another to have a commercial target for legal action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Syverson
"There are no special provisions for industry publications -- ..."
Thanks for that Ben, but I remember something, maybe it was research publications then. Something I was aiming to look up and research in the future in any case, as the secrecy provisions in Patenting are draconian and burdensome, and definitely favour richer businesses (or small efforts) that are able to internalise their efforts. It would have been good if the laws had been written to allow for more open collaborative efforts, like the way they work in open-source, it would definitely benefit the public interest and we here could be more open.

"Patenting in "Europe" is a little more complicated than it sounds -- you need a patent for each country."
I am aware of that, but it is streamed lined (that's if they have sorted out all the bugs yet and translation costs". You will find a few patent conventions around the world that many countries align their laws with, and systems of applications for small groups of countries. The important thing I am conveying for readers, is that not every patent needs to go through every country to get the most of the benefit.

"And the US is the only country I'm aware of that gives you time to patent your idea after it has been made public. Everywhere else, you're out of luck."
Are you sure that none of the conventions supports this feature? My rudimentary knowledge of the patent system is quiet old now and with recent convention, and memory, is probably out of date somewhat, but in past I thought I heard this feature mentioned elsewhere.

"Honestly, patents are not worth it unless you anticipate making at least a million dollars from your idea. Otherwise, it's a massive and expensive waste of everyone's time. Believe me -- I've been down that road before."
Yes, I know. For the benefit of readers again. There are cheaper ways to avoid patenting until you have a company that can afford them (and finale manufacturing development, manufacture and marketing) in the form of Confidential Disclosure Deeds and Agreements (I have a few old blanks sitting here). People really need to get professional advise on their use.

"Patent claims need to be worded extremely carefully -- are you willing to...I don't recommend "going it alone.""
Yes I know that is why I said "doing it yourself maybe cheaper but may also be less effective." As their are probably still a few individuals that could maybe do it effectively themselves, but for most of the rest of us, Patent attorneys would be the way to go.

So if the US is the only country (and any other) let me continue to exercise my rights for the US, and simply let them mostly slip by in time (unless legal opportunity arises). There are companies out there that do slip State of the Art patents by the Patent office, and it has cost so much to overturn a illegal patent in times past that companies have been forced to pay them royalties. So the perpetrators have fair warning, I have provided explicit proof.

I'll have to put the research into special disclosure provisions onto my long list of things to do in the future.

Thanks Ben glad your here, not many people are so knowledgeable on this area.

Wayne.

Last edited by Wayne Morellini; June 29th, 2005 at 11:52 PM.
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Old July 1st, 2005, 02:20 AM   #440
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Hi Wayne,

I'm just going by what my patent attorneys have told me, and what research I've done (which is US-centric). I do know that research publications are definitely still "public." And while the patent laws are similar in most countries (I think they're still working on standardizing throughout Europe), your attorney still needs to go through the motions, and file all the appropriate paperwork, which is why each country winds up costing around US$15k. I seem to remember there are a couple countries like the US where you have some time after making your idea public, but I don't think they're major markets. Basically, you can choose between ultra-secrecy and worldwide patents, or less secrecy and a US patent. Whether worldwide patents are necessary is up to you.

For example, if you know your only real competition is a giant company like Apple or Microsoft, you can afford to cover yourself with just a US patent. Why? Because they would never develop a major product that isn't marketable in the US.

There are companies that slip questionable patents through the system. However, the more vague and general a patent is, the longer it will take to push through. During the patent process, you can get rejected, and then have to revise it -- and for certain types of patents, it can go back and forth several times (meaning many years). So that's one concern -- during that time, you may have "Patent Pending" status, but there's no guarantee that you'll get it. But even having the patent is just the beginning of your worries. Most companies, when challenged with a patent, will look over the patent with a fine tooth comb before they respond. If there's ANY kink in the patent, they'll take it to court, and argue over every...single...word... (That's why you want to pay the experts to write the thing in the first place) If the patent is struck down, you may have to pay extensive damages. Also, in the US, the first response to any lawsuit is a counter-suit -- so there will actually be two whole sets of court costs.

So you don't want to challenge a company with your patent unless you're very, very sure the patent will stand up, and that you'll cover your court costs. Which means you're going after huge companies with potentially better lawyers than you.

All of this added up means the cards are stacked WAY against the small businessperson. Of course, if you are able to get a solid, basic patent through the system in a few major markets, you can massively stick it to your competition, and anyone who tries to bully you. It's one of the only ways a small company can gain leverage in a sea of large ones.

If you have any other questions, feel free to email! I'm in the middle of all this stuff right now...

- ben
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Old July 1st, 2005, 09:45 AM   #441
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Thanks Ben, I am already been working in ultra-secrecy mode too, I was a member of an association, a while ago, that did most of the leg work with the lawyers and educated us. But, until it is time to afford the lawyers, I will keep it secret and just survive on my ignorance.

Note, that I am not suggesting that it is a good idea to bi-pass a Patent Attorney, very few people are that good.

The companies with illegal prior-art patents have gotten away with it, in times past, because challenging and overturning the patent was so costly the companies (even reasonably large ones) effected just paid up royalties. I have actually been developing the idea of a fairer "tribute" based system to replace present patent and copyright idea.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 10:21 AM   #442
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some links

Samsung presents 5 megapixel CMOS image sensor
http://www.dvhardware.net/article5561.html

2048x2048 pixel imafes at 30 frames second
http://www.sarnoffimaging.com/produc...es/CAM4M30.pdf

Low prices low resolution but worth to read
http://www.dpreview.com/news/article...02cmosraceison

Mikron CMOS against the Panasonic CCD imager from the DMC FZ10
http://www.videsignline.com/showArti...cleID=60407126
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Old July 6th, 2005, 01:25 AM   #443
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Nice finds Ronald. Not really upto reading at the moment though I skimmed through much of it. I think those Samsung sensors sound like the ones I mentioned here last year, that I tried to enquire about. They're taking their time!

The Micron 60% fill factor sounds good, and so do integrated sensors with a USB2.0 bus (thats the one I've got to read when I'm clearer).

The Sarnoff one sounds very interesting, 70%QE, 1 inch+ etc. How much is it, are you planning on doing something with it?
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Old July 29th, 2005, 03:34 AM   #444
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Started up some new threads:

Technique for Pixel Shifting single chip sensors/cameras, and technique for increased detail in primary/complementary colour images:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...561#post339561

Technique to decrease compression ratio in DV footage
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...571#post339571


Something I was referring too before about patents:
http://www.wipo.int/pct/en/


New edition of the Mac Mini is a disappointment.

Haven't finished checking out the Sony HC1 yet, nice picture, but compression artifacts, lack of proper manual controls, interlacing and rolling shutter are disappointments. Lack of cheap component capture also problem.

Pity so many CCD's have rolling shutter problems to, understand future generation of CCD and CMOS will have better solutions.


Thanks for listening

Wayne.
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Old July 29th, 2005, 03:57 AM   #445
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From:
http://www.videsignline.com/showArti...cleID=60407126
Posted by Ron above.
Quote:
Most CMOS image sensors analyzed have a fill factor range of around 30 percent. The changes made by Micron, however, have allowed for a 60 percent fill factor.

In fact, the light-capture area of the Micron sensor is five times larger, at 5 micron2, than the Panasonic CCD, at 1.2 micron2, though the CCD pixel size is much smaller. Although an improved CMOS process still suffers from more noise sources at the pixel than a CCD, even its detractors admit that capturing five times as many photons as the competition lets CMOS imagers close a big part of the image-quality gap.
I think this says a lot for the situation, low fill factor can wipe out high QE benefits. Even using micro lensing to increase effective fillfactory, may stop you from using very low apertures. But does anybody know how such small sensor pads, affect well capacity, and latitude?
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Old November 17th, 2005, 11:08 AM   #446
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Ronald, I am starting to look at the Elphel camera. I remember you always wanted a Linux camera, I think it can be user reprogrammed, and it even has a linux distro disc available to use it. As such it makes for an interesting camera development platform.

It would be good if somebody tied up the capture and editor translation side (for Cineralla). It is by far the cheapest of all options with on board compression and programmability. I am wondering if it can be programmed to write directly to an Ethernet external hard drive unit. Even though I heard Andrey does not believe it is suitable for our task, you could theoretically do the adjustments yourself. Have fun.

Forgot to mention, read recent report of January release of cheaper Intel based ibook Mac, shame that distro won't work on it.

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511intelibook.html
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Old March 4th, 2006, 11:13 PM   #447
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Haven't been here for a while, but am still steadily collecting links to useful stuff for DIY cameras, hundreds actually. If anybody would like to sort and post the relevant ones, please give me a post, I am just incapable of getting to it.

Well, here is a thread on a comparison of new 500GB drives, there is a clear performance leader.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...606#post442606
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Old March 28th, 2006, 07:53 AM   #448
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$100 MS Development system for xbox360:
http://news.com.com/2061-10797_3-6052255.html

As you know, this system has more than enough power for your video need.

Here is a new thread about web cams being modified (sensors changing as well) for astronomy. Generally I stay away from reprogramming these things, because you have to find programming information, that may mean a lot of work decoding the hardware, but if these guys have done it already then great. Web cams are cheap, some are good quality.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...118#post455118

I post this link here for the Digital Cinema camera community subscribed to this thread, as many are not around, but it will turn up in their subscriptions, so they can take a look at the new thread. And people outside can respond to the thread directly if they are interested in the subject. As I have done in times past (but it seems that these notes are disappearing).
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Old March 28th, 2006, 08:34 AM   #449
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Here are some extra threads with relevant stuff:

AMD in talks with Clearspeed (coprocessor potential for H264/JPEG2K realtime editing):
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=62984

Ambarella h264 codec chip 15Mb/s+, 1080/720p60 9Mb/s, $1K pro versions and cheap cam.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58391

H264 transcode acceleration
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=62434


Cheap alternative way to record component from HD cameras
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=61343
Idea for low compression camera capture, even for digital cinema camera.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=62057


Doing 25Mb/s virtual 720p on the HC1/A1.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49895

New 3D 720p24 RAW camera in news:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58537

You can talk about them there.
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Old May 8th, 2006, 02:00 AM   #450
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Smooth direct card to disk 140MB/s recording Camerlink frame grabber

OK, something looks strange here.

But anyway, I have located a camerlink frame grabber card that has it's own drive controller and SCSI port for 140MB/s, yes, apparently seamless direct to disk picture acquisition without going through the PCI bus. The PCI bus is used for monitoring the footage on the computer screen.

Cost, well, believe it or not, I email the Canadian seller for price and ask some questions and for some reason he answers very little talks about USB cameras and tells me to contact the Australian distributor, and I still didn't get all my questions answered (a all too common "I give up" like problem these days, will phone rather then wait for emails in future) so I have not got a correct confirmed US price for you guys, but around $3KUS at maximum. Could be a lot cheaper, as 'distributors' over here tend to charge like a bull at a gate, but he did seem to indicate that was the price range.

Yes, I am peeved at all the time wasting.

This isn't anywhere is the price range that we were looking for, but if you look at it this way, as system built around this is a lot cheaper then the commercial cinema cameras out there. With one or two drives (backed up to cheaper ATA drives) a smaller computer (because it no longer needs to handle as much drive data). So, if anybody is interested, it is:

http://ioindustries.com/cameras.htm
http://ioindustries.com/cl160.htm
http://ioindustries.com/cl160system.htm

This is the baby board, they have full cameralink maxi boards as well.

Australia distributor:
http://www.adept.net.au/

Of curiosity, Epix has a PCIExpress cameralink frame grabbers. You will note, that the PIXCI® E1 version uses a very small one channel PCIExpress, similar to what the new Pciexpress laptop cards use, so hope yet that somebody will do a version for that (in case anybody doesn't know there has been a PC-CARD Cameralink card previously).

http://www.epixinc.com/products/index.htm


The guy from Adept mentioned that Coreco (I think that was the one, but check) cameralink cards had special trigger software features to ensure smooth live footage recording on PC's (unlike all that trouble we had programming other framegrabbers). He said the secret to smooth recording was a couple of simple things, I wasn't too bothered enough to ask what they were. But then again, there are always a lot of people telling me they know the answers to things, but it usually turns out different, so how can I know. Yes, it appears to be a Dalsa company, and you can predict what sort of camera he was trying to sell me ;)

http://www.imaging.com/
http://www.machinevisiononline.org/b...company_id=224

An CL to Ethernet converter:
http://www.imaging.com/Web/home.nsf/...ment=&L_FID=Gb

Well that is all for now, I am not feeling well. There might be something significant latter in the week.
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