Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

[Daniel Schaumberger]

Here are also 2 links for cooling with peltier and liquid:

http://www.pk3.org/Astro/do_it_yourself.htm

http://www.konradhorn.de/seite4.htm

Daniel

[Take Vos]

Hello Solomon,

Originally Posted by Solomon Chase

Go with c-mount, especially for testing. You can use Nikon F, PL mount, Canon FD lenses and many more with mount adapters. If you special order Pike 210 with f-mount you are stuck with that. You'd also miss out on some cool lenses like the 1-inch F0.85 Fujinon c-mount I have (blazing fast!)

I was wondering, the F-mount is larger than a C-mount, so wouldn't a F-to-C-adapter cause vignetting itself? Or would such an adapter be fine on a 1" sensor?

The F0.85 you mention are out of production, from what I read their website. I've been looking around for C-mount lenses, but there are only a few that would qualify for such a large sensor and new or second hand they are also quite expensive. And I wonder if a Super16 lens would be large enough for a 1" sensor (they also almost never appear with C-mount either)

If I look at ebay-like sites there are a lot of SLR lenses available for little money, so I can create quite a collection of those. The size of a 35 mm lens probably also makes it easier to focus than a small c-mount.

Does any one have some ideas for what I should do, I am planning to buy the camera quite soon, so I need to know if I should go for a direct F-mount or if a F-to-C-adapter would work good enough with a 1" sensor.

[Wayne Morellini]

Back from the defunct. After my computer crashed and I lost the main drive, and the backup drive, I have been very sick for weeks, and am still restoring my system and past couple of years of camera related project information.

Take, there are lists that give you actual sizes of film and sensor formats on the web. If you google around and try wikipedia you might be able to find something.

[Wayne Morellini]

This is an very old idea I had from years ago, early 90's, looks like Apple is trying to patent it:

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/05...ontrol_patent/

It is really the best innovative way for simple out of the way control and many of my devices where unfortunately planned to use it. It is not my last control technology by far. I think I might know of somebody that also publicly had an similar idea.

I have been applying these control technologies to Digital Cinema camera designs as well.

This sort of thing has happened many times before, and with Apple to. Shame having all the talent and no money or health to take advantage of it.

When they make an device using this with an camera, it will be interesting.


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[Wayne Morellini]

Zolt, over at the Elphel 333 cinema camera project thread is offering up his RAW lossless compression project to anybody that is interested. I think it is both software and FPGA fro use on the Elphel 353 camera with internal hard disk, but I guess it can be made to work for any camera.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....&postcount=683

It is an bit crazy over there, lots of people doing different things, but where it is going still hasn't panned out yet. The camera is available the projects are not finished yet. Still, this is looking more and more like the sort of camera system everybody talks about of needing, customisable, FPGA, and cheapish. Unfortunately, they are still using Micron Sensors, and an better sensor would be nice, though an Micron should be as good or better, than many pro-sumer cameras. The Micron sensors today are more advanced than the ones we started with though.

If anybody is interested, please contact Zolt.

[Wayne Morellini]

Here is an multiple lens 3D 1.1Mp camera sensor (Is that right?).
http://www.technologyreview.com/read....aspx?id=18772

Here is full video at 1 Lux sensor, for low light shooting:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94917
Sounds similar to that previous sensor I mentioned a while ago.

As you may all know, Sony is bringing out an lower cost prosumer XDCAMHD camera, and previously released the V1 into the prosumer price slot. They are lobbing one in our direction. It will have half inch chips, undoubtedly good noise characteristics, and latitude combined with the 35mb/s codec should give an number of Digital Cinema camera manufacturers an run for their money. I predicted this, because, at those prices it doesn't really hurt them, but it steals away sales from $20K cameras. In the mid range we have solutions that record low compressed from prosumer cameras, which hurts sales of mid-ranged digital cinema cameras, but still a bulky exercise that make an prosumer camera look attractive. On the other end of the scale there are the low cost 720p pocket cameras. While not an great threat to an $20K, or mid range cameras, it still discourages sales of cheap digital cinema cameras. Just as importantly, these initiatives discourage people from developing cheap digital cinema camera solutions. Sounds very much of, attacking where they are weak, and appearing where you are not expected.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91594

Naivety has ruled the market, and the crunch time is probably coming, but sales may remain adequate at all levels for the remaining companies, with the cheap end probably do the best in numbers. What was needed was price points that would really hurt the established competition, price points they cannot match without collapsing their businesses. 20K is good for threatening $100K+ cameras, but that is only a small portion of the business, assuming you can get an substantial portion. $10K you start really hurting everything above it, and an good portion of the business. $5K you start hurting an lot of the professional/prosumer business. At under $2K-1K you can effectively start collapsing businesses, as the consumer business now comes under substantial threat. The point at which companies might come under threat, due to inertial costs, is when the prosumer comes under threat.

$279 720p Pocket Camcorder with h264,
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=93488

Not the best, consumer, but fairly good consumer for the price, better than the Sanyo HD1. Expect better cameras will come with a quality similar to some HDV cameras.

Me, I await an camera, Elphel, Panasonic H264Intra, JVC? single chip pro sumer, XDCAM HDe, Samsung, we will see. The ride has been interesting, but the bull has not started really bucking yet (and many have already fallen off).

[Wayne Morellini]

Take has been working on recorder software for his Firewire camera, and is advancing, here is his thread here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89837

[Wayne Morellini]

In recent discussion this subject came up, and I decided it would be good to post it here and share it.

It can be done for $200, I have been trying to find somebody to make it (anybody interested message me, if you don;'t get an reply an spam filter has conquered it, email dvinfo to let me know). It does not use Intensity, an PC, or cineform though, but wavelet, or H264 intra. I guess cineform or another codec is possible if anybody has an FPGA design, or hard codec.

The market is quiet large if you add camera control, for examples recording directly to hard drive (or computer through USB etc):

Normal camera + POV + security cameras:
HDMI/component/video, sound + fire-wire/USB camera control/serial

Digital Stills:
HDMI/component/video, sound

As an universal Industrial USB/Fire-wire/GigE video recorder:
Camera interface (sound external)

Web-cams:
USB

As an Personal Video/HD video Recorder:
HDMI/component/video + sound +fire-wire for control

As an long line Link, put two together.

On top of this an micro-controller can control an external interface (to hook to external camera controls) and control buttons for an few dollars.

As you can see, the one basic design can have interfaces built around that allow it to service many different markets. Your market now goes to hundreds of thousands an year (considering that use as an long haul link for home theatre might not be much of the market).

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

http://www.altasens.com/Products%208M.htm

[Wayne Morellini]

Cool, so when will Silicon Imaging have them? I see they have advanced Dynamic Range control, lower light etc, at last somebody listened, and combined advance tech on the same chip. Thanks Juan, let us know when more performance detail is available?

Now for somebody to do an camera based on the new Foveon sensor technology.

[Wayne Morellini]

High Dynamic Range:
http://www.altasens.com/AltaSensBits...essRelease.pdf

Lower dark current and noise again.

Looks like the 1/2inch sensor is out, and over "HDV" sensors.

http://www.altasens.com/ap7.html

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

I don't know of any Foveon sensor available with a decent framerate and megapixel count......

[Wayne Morellini]

As with other companies they do custom designs. They have other designs planned from reports, and have one that will do 720p presently. I wonder if there will be new HD cameras with Altasens or Foveon.

[Wayne Morellini]

I've read about these ideas before, where an card that fits an normal USB port also has another card interface at the other end. In future I hope they give up on all these different card standards and settle for an general interface like USB2.0/3.0. For me, in embedded design, it makes life an bit easier.

Initial max capacity is 8GB, going to 2TB theoretical max, so enough for an movie (maybe one day).

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article...7/06/02/202206
http://www.computerworld.com/action/...&intsrc=kc_top
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/06/p...first-micards/

[Wayne Morellini]

I often come across people that that Linux is the be all, and end all of operating systems, and even good for camera HD acquisition. Even though it can be done with proper programing this article I found today is an interesting read.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...070726/136821/

Reading an article on Tron in the 80's, when it came out, was one of the original things that influenced my path in operating system design, putting em on the right path, so to speak. Other things were really talented people in embedded and froth programming.

You may not recognise Tron, but iti is one of the popular real time embedded OS's you will find in DVD players, CD players, washing machines, fridges and microwave ovens, all the sorts of places you don't find quirky desktop crashers that require oodles of resources to do the same thing. From memory, the task scheduling from Tron was also chosen as an replacement in Windows CE by Microsoft.

It would not surprise me if you could find cameras, and webcams, programmed in Tron.