Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

Wayne Morellini · September 14th, 2004, 01:06 AM

Unlike some countries, we have had rising stadards over here, that appears to have slacken off. One network was not even accepting anything that was not on a Beta format. 3CCD is the minium and anything prosumer was looked down upon. But in the last year or so things have eased and even neworks are using the little crappy buggers.

The truth is, if you want to make cinema you can use a 16mm film camera, you don't need anything else! But why do people go for 35mm, or digital, because it either looks better, or offers some other advantage to them. The same is for doco's, you can use a crappy SD 3CCD'er that needs lots of NLE colour/lighting work to make it look somewhat natural, or you can get a better camera and make your stuff look good. That is REALITY, and nobody should expect Doco's to settle for third best.

Still more stuppidfying, is the fact that I did two paragraphs, for two issues, as to why the camera and sensors inquestion where not the best, one for range, and one for low light.

Obin Olson · September 14th, 2004, 01:17 AM

BTW Wayne I can make a "crappy 3ccder" look just as good as your BETA SP rig or your DVCPRO50 rig..it's all in how you light your subject...not to say that the dynamic range from a really CHEAPO camera is not worse then a $35,000 dvcpro50 rig..but if you light FOR your camera you can get the SAME image...really ...trust me....it's what I do day in and day out

BTW on a note of something that everyone can use:

SheerVideo has told me that the "conversion" from RGB-->YUV is something that is built into the codec..so this is a non-issue now as well...

"was not on a Beta format" that is a VERY aging format!
how can you say:
"we have had rising stadards over here"

Wayne Morellini · September 14th, 2004, 01:46 AM

In case you didn't realise I said Beta (generic) that includes all beta formats, and if you think a miniDV camera has as much detail or range as a good dvcpro50 (or digital Beta) you must need my glasses. If you followed the story you would realise that we had a problem with rising standards here, upto a year or so ago, now it is in reverse. But I am also worried (which I admit I did not put in there) that this trend will start again when the 3 chip Sony PD-190 comes out. As usual I notice you have avoided all my correct overriding arguments, because you can't argue against them. I don't know why, because you are making enough of a hash out of the avoidance arguments you are using.

I didn't mention anything about sheer video?????

Rob Lohman · September 14th, 2004, 04:28 AM

Okay: I've edited out some stuff you guys where throwing around.
Let's keep it civil. It is easy to mis-understand one-another on
such a place as a forum and people will have very different stand
points on things that they might defend a bit too much.

Obin: since you are designing your own camera and you want it
to be for only cinema work that is fine. Others might want to use
it for other work as well (like documentary) so you might want to
take that into account. If you don't, that's fine as well, since it is
your own camera platform. However, do not put other people
down because they might want to do this.

Wayne: Obin can do whatever he wants in the end with his own
platform. That's okay. If he doesn't wants to use it for DOC work
that's fine. When I spoke to Rob S. it looks like we do want to
make an (a more?) open platform (that can be used for shooting
different kinds of footage) , but the main priority is to get a
complete working system first. As you can imagine.

Since this is a technical discussion do not reply with more thoughts
about what kind of work it should do. For Obin's camera that is up
to him and for the Rob's <g> platform that can be discussed in the
other thread.

Thank you for your understanding and let's keep it civil people!

Wayne Morellini · September 14th, 2004, 09:02 AM

Yes, I agree whole heartedly, that's my piont he can do that with his platform and for now we are also trying to start with a cinema system. Except I started this thread as a general technical thread, and it is a technical issue aswell. So I hope I'm free to find low light alternatives, and cheaper alternatives, suitable for a wider range of work (if I knew any).

I however have one thing to say: Obin, please, leave me alone, as I have been doing for you in the other thread.

Thanks

Wayne.

Wayne Morellini · September 15th, 2004, 12:41 AM

Rob S, here is an interesting case style for a handheld 720p.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Camcorders.htm

Would certainly show JVC up if somebody introduced a simular 720p camera with a hard disk that is 20 times that capacity and a fraction of that ones $399-$500 price.

Now only if they could do that?

What do you think Rob?

Thanks

Wayne.

Rob Scott · September 15th, 2004, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Wayne Morellini wrote:
Rob S, here is an interesting case style for a handheld 720p.

Thanks Wayne! Looks interesting.

Quote:

Would certainly show JVC up if somebody introduced a simular 720p camera with a hard disk that is 20 times that capacity and a fraction of that ones $399-$500 price.

Now only if they could do that?

What do you think Rob?

I think it's possible, but to really compete with someone like JVC would require a lot of resources.

Jason Rodriguez · September 15th, 2004, 09:35 AM

Wayne, since you're worried about low-light with the Altasens, know that the 3560 chip, when boosted to +18db, will be at ISO 1600.

ISO 1600 should be plenty enough for everybody.

Wayne Morellini · September 15th, 2004, 06:15 PM

Rob, I suppose I'm not really talking about competing with JVC, just a show pony to show them up. I don't expect multiple 100K sales or anything like that.

Jason thanks, but what S/N at that db (I am still not clear on that yet, will have to contact Altasens)? I expect it to do the job as well as the previouse JY-DV500.

Jason Rodriguez · September 16th, 2004, 09:47 AM

supposedly Altasens is bragging that the 3560 can do up to 100db maximum, 72db typical. I'm not sure what the S/N ratio is at +18db gain.

Wayne Morellini · September 16th, 2004, 10:52 PM

Jason thanks, these are much more than the figures I have read previously, and right in my ball park of what I am after (more than the GY-DV5000). Now if I can compress the bright light contrast range down, I should be able to pickup some brilliant images, lowlight and bright local sunlight.

The problem was that I had read some funny figures around 54-60db for this chip, gain amplifies SN floor, so that meant 18db gain would have given me something like 36db+ SN, which is on average the upper 6 bits of a 8 bit pixel. But if it is upto 100db that is around 82db, enough for nearly 14-bits (which in 12-bit mode is perfect).

Rob Lohman · September 17th, 2004, 02:05 AM

Hitachi 100 GB 2.5" S-ATA 5400 RPM drive

Wayne Morellini · September 17th, 2004, 07:05 AM

Yes, good find Rob, this is the first laptoip good enough to add to my links database of the project. It is saying older laptop drives are using a 100Mbit/s interface, that would explain why so many are so slow, and this one uses 100MB/s interface, perfect for us. For those who haven't read it, it also says that sata will be the new laptop interface.

This is the first laptop drive good enough to I have added to my project boomark.

Forgot to mention, for those who want to use big processors. Digitlife, has news on the Thermaltake BigWater thermal cooler solution (17-21db).

http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?108547#108547

and sony is producing OEL's finally (lost the link, but here's a product announcement).

http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?108449#108449

Rob Scott · September 17th, 2004, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Wayne Morellini wrote:
and sony is producing OEL's finally (lost the link, but here's a product announcement).

Here's a link:
http://www.brighthand.com/article/So..._OLED_Displays

Wayne Morellini · September 17th, 2004, 08:05 AM

Here are those smallest mini-itx fanless PSU's, and the company has some other mini-itx stuff, including P4 boards, very small box pc, wrap around pc, ATA to compact flash convertor. Maybe all a bit slow at the moment but worth keeping an eye on. :

http://www.mini-box.com/

http://www.travla.com/
More Car PC stuff, p4 m-itx PSU, and compact flash adaptor.

http://www.morex.com.tw/mainpage2003.htm
More of the same.

Build your own Super Tint Home Server:
http://www.extremetech.com/print_art...=133886,00.asp

VIA also announced the new processor naming scheme, and I found information on the new post 2Ghz low powered processor:

http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/p...sor_naming.jsp
http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/p...r040518epf.jsp

Rob, yes that's the one, have you read their upcoming technology articles, they ussually have some nifty stuff.

I also have to piont out that I expect multimedia Arms and Xscale machines to hit 1Ghz next year (as the highest speed possible is beyond that for a while now), as they are Windows .net, it might make an interesting platform (Windows .net also adopted the Tron OS task switching technology that should help in speed compared to normal).

September 14th, 2004, 04:28 AM	#124
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Okay: I've edited out some stuff you guys where throwing around. Let's keep it civil. It is easy to mis-understand one-another on such a place as a forum and people will have very different stand points on things that they might defend a bit too much. Obin: since you are designing your own camera and you want it to be for only cinema work that is fine. Others might want to use it for other work as well (like documentary) so you might want to take that into account. If you don't, that's fine as well, since it is your own camera platform. However, do not put other people down because they might want to do this. Wayne: Obin can do whatever he wants in the end with his own platform. That's okay. If he doesn't wants to use it for DOC work that's fine. When I spoke to Rob S. it looks like we do want to make an (a more?) open platform (that can be used for shooting different kinds of footage) , but the main priority is to get a complete working system first. As you can imagine. Since this is a technical discussion do not reply with more thoughts about what kind of work it should do. For Obin's camera that is up to him and for the Rob's <g> platform that can be discussed in the other thread. Thank you for your understanding and let's keep it civil people! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 17th, 2004, 02:05 AM	#132
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Hitachi 100 GB 2.5" S-ATA 5400 RPM drive __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 14th, 2004, 01:06 AM	#121
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Unlike some countries, we have had rising stadards over here, that appears to have slacken off. One network was not even accepting anything that was not on a Beta format. 3CCD is the minium and anything prosumer was looked down upon. But in the last year or so things have eased and even neworks are using the little crappy buggers. The truth is, if you want to make cinema you can use a 16mm film camera, you don't need anything else! But why do people go for 35mm, or digital, because it either looks better, or offers some other advantage to them. The same is for doco's, you can use a crappy SD 3CCD'er that needs lots of NLE colour/lighting work to make it look somewhat natural, or you can get a better camera and make your stuff look good. That is REALITY, and nobody should expect Doco's to settle for third best. Still more stuppidfying, is the fact that I did two paragraphs, for two issues, as to why the camera and sensors inquestion where not the best, one for range, and one for low light.

September 14th, 2004, 01:17 AM	#122
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	BTW Wayne I can make a "crappy 3ccder" look just as good as your BETA SP rig or your DVCPRO50 rig..it's all in how you light your subject...not to say that the dynamic range from a really CHEAPO camera is not worse then a $35,000 dvcpro50 rig..but if you light FOR your camera you can get the SAME image...really ...trust me....it's what I do day in and day out BTW on a note of something that everyone can use: SheerVideo has told me that the "conversion" from RGB-->YUV is something that is built into the codec..so this is a non-issue now as well... "was not on a Beta format" that is a VERY aging format! how can you say: "we have had rising stadards over here"

September 14th, 2004, 01:46 AM	#123
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	In case you didn't realise I said Beta (generic) that includes all beta formats, and if you think a miniDV camera has as much detail or range as a good dvcpro50 (or digital Beta) you must need my glasses. If you followed the story you would realise that we had a problem with rising standards here, upto a year or so ago, now it is in reverse. But I am also worried (which I admit I did not put in there) that this trend will start again when the 3 chip Sony PD-190 comes out. As usual I notice you have avoided all my correct overriding arguments, because you can't argue against them. I don't know why, because you are making enough of a hash out of the avoidance arguments you are using. I didn't mention anything about sheer video?????

September 14th, 2004, 09:02 AM	#125
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yes, I agree whole heartedly, that's my piont he can do that with his platform and for now we are also trying to start with a cinema system. Except I started this thread as a general technical thread, and it is a technical issue aswell. So I hope I'm free to find low light alternatives, and cheaper alternatives, suitable for a wider range of work (if I knew any). I however have one thing to say: Obin, please, leave me alone, as I have been doing for you in the other thread. Thanks Wayne.

September 15th, 2004, 12:41 AM	#126
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Rob S, here is an interesting case style for a handheld 720p. http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Camcorders.htm Would certainly show JVC up if somebody introduced a simular 720p camera with a hard disk that is 20 times that capacity and a fraction of that ones $399-$500 price. Now only if they could do that? What do you think Rob? Thanks Wayne.

September 15th, 2004, 09:35 AM	#128
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Wayne, since you're worried about low-light with the Altasens, know that the 3560 chip, when boosted to +18db, will be at ISO 1600. ISO 1600 should be plenty enough for everybody.

September 15th, 2004, 06:15 PM	#129
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Rob, I suppose I'm not really talking about competing with JVC, just a show pony to show them up. I don't expect multiple 100K sales or anything like that. Jason thanks, but what S/N at that db (I am still not clear on that yet, will have to contact Altasens)? I expect it to do the job as well as the previouse JY-DV500.

September 16th, 2004, 09:47 AM	#130
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	supposedly Altasens is bragging that the 3560 can do up to 100db maximum, 72db typical. I'm not sure what the S/N ratio is at +18db gain.

September 16th, 2004, 10:52 PM	#131
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Jason thanks, these are much more than the figures I have read previously, and right in my ball park of what I am after (more than the GY-DV5000). Now if I can compress the bright light contrast range down, I should be able to pickup some brilliant images, lowlight and bright local sunlight. The problem was that I had read some funny figures around 54-60db for this chip, gain amplifies SN floor, so that meant 18db gain would have given me something like 36db+ SN, which is on average the upper 6 bits of a 8 bit pixel. But if it is upto 100db that is around 82db, enough for nearly 14-bits (which in 12-bit mode is perfect).

September 17th, 2004, 07:05 AM	#133
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yes, good find Rob, this is the first laptoip good enough to add to my links database of the project. It is saying older laptop drives are using a 100Mbit/s interface, that would explain why so many are so slow, and this one uses 100MB/s interface, perfect for us. For those who haven't read it, it also says that sata will be the new laptop interface. This is the first laptop drive good enough to I have added to my project boomark. Forgot to mention, for those who want to use big processors. Digitlife, has news on the Thermaltake BigWater thermal cooler solution (17-21db). http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?108547#108547 and sony is producing OEL's finally (lost the link, but here's a product announcement). http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?108449#108449

September 17th, 2004, 08:05 AM	#135
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Here are those smallest mini-itx fanless PSU's, and the company has some other mini-itx stuff, including P4 boards, very small box pc, wrap around pc, ATA to compact flash convertor. Maybe all a bit slow at the moment but worth keeping an eye on. : http://www.mini-box.com/ http://www.travla.com/ More Car PC stuff, p4 m-itx PSU, and compact flash adaptor. http://www.morex.com.tw/mainpage2003.htm More of the same. Build your own Super Tint Home Server: http://www.extremetech.com/print_art...=133886,00.asp VIA also announced the new processor naming scheme, and I found information on the new post 2Ghz low powered processor: http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/p...sor_naming.jsp http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/p...r040518epf.jsp Rob, yes that's the one, have you read their upcoming technology articles, they ussually have some nifty stuff. I also have to piont out that I expect multimedia Arms and Xscale machines to hit 1Ghz next year (as the highest speed possible is beyond that for a while now), as they are Windows .net, it might make an interesting platform (Windows .net also adopted the Tron OS task switching technology that should help in speed compared to normal).