Microcrystalline Wax Techniques?

Keith Kline · February 3rd, 2005, 05:33 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : I know that's alot of wax, but I figure I'd rather have way too much than not enough. -->>>

hey Keith, you can always SELL this wax to someone like people on this forum... :) maybe this is idea what to do with the rest of it when you finish your GG.

filip -->>>

That's actually what I was thinking. The guy I'm borrowing the vacuum chamber from said he might wants so also, so I'm gonna find out how much he wants and get him to chip in. I figured it out and I can get 11lbs. of the 175 and 11lbs. of the 195 for less than $60 shipped to me so if he wants like half I might just get both and try both types.

Also am picking up the vacuum chamber tomorrow afternoon, so hopefully I'll get to try making some next week.

I asked before, but no one replied. Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious.

Jim Lafferty · February 3rd, 2005, 06:00 PM

UV filters -- Hoya generic UV filters at whatever diameter fits. They shouldn't run anymore than $14, and can be popped out of their retaining rings easily.

Frank Ladner · February 4th, 2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

I asked before, but no one replied. Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious.

I purchase round picture frames from Hobby Lobby. The glass is close to 50mm in diameter. The best part is they cost $ .99 each.

Jim Lafferty · February 4th, 2005, 11:32 PM

Just got this in the mail:

Quote:

I just caught up with your note posted on the Wax Emulsion forum last October about applying a microwax film to glass filters for DV cameras.

It seems to me that you need a very uniform and thin film of wax. Your idea of melting the wax would work, but will be difficult to apply a thin and uniform film. I think your idea of doing it from a solvent solution should work. Almost any petroleum based solvent will dissolve microwax, but you may have an easier time of it using something like toluene. This can be purchased at Home Depot in small containers.

Another option would be to try a microcrystalline wax emulsion, which is a water based suspension of the wax. The drawbacks to this approach is that the water will take more time to evaporate than the solvent, and small quantities of a suitable wax emulsion will be difficult to obtain commercially.

I'm going to be writing this guy and experimenting with what he suggests -- apparently, he writes, he was the "Product Manager for waxes and wax emulsions at Mobil Oil Corp" prior to retiring. This could be fun :D

- jim

Aaron Shaw · February 4th, 2005, 11:56 PM

Very cool. Let us know how the experiments go!

Keith Kline · February 5th, 2005, 01:31 AM

Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

It's not very big, but it should do the job. Actually starting to look for teh parts now to build one fore myself a little larger. Hopefully I'm gonna order some wax this weekend and start trying this thing out. I'm still not sure if it'll pull enough of a vacuum to remove the air from the wax, but it should in theory. This one was designed to remove the air from liquid molding silicon and that's even more thick then teh melted wax.

Just to understand what everyone one else has tried. How are you guys going about putting the glass and together in the wax and also what are people using for spacers? Is there any ideal thinkness established yet?

Keith Kline · February 5th, 2005, 02:01 AM

Before I forget. I'm still debating on how much of that wax to get. If I end up with extra, is there anyone who might be interested in a pound or 2 for their experiments? I haven't priced the stuff out per pound with shipping and everything, but I'm guessing it would be less than 5 bucks a pound. Prob. more like $4 though. This wouldn't including shipping to you, but I doubt that would be very much for a pound. Just seeing if there might be any interest. Let me know. Thanks.

Filip Kovcin · February 5th, 2005, 06:21 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious. -->>>

i found very nice glases in optical (oculist/ophthalmologist) shop where they are selling frames for glasses (not for drinking) - and they are cutting it in some strange mashines - any shape you want - and diameter. i did it with 0 dioptry glases for GG and for +7 and more for my testings (macro). everyting worked perfectly.
you can ask them to cut VERy preciselly, say 58,1mm or 57,9mm and it will work. i needed for my tests one 52mm and one 58mm diameter glass, and everyting was exellent. and CHEAP!

filip

Filip Kovcin · February 5th, 2005, 06:24 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

-->>>

looks very "pro" - can you tell us about the sizes in cm or " ?

just curious

filip

Jim Lafferty · February 5th, 2005, 08:14 AM

Quote:

How are you guys going about putting the glass and together in the wax and also what are people using for spacers? Is there any ideal thinkness established yet?

Frank and I have been using aluminum foil for spacers -- one layer thick is the "ideal" thickness so far -- any thicker and light loss is pretty extreme, however at one layer inconsistencies in the wax layer and bubbles become a real pain. You just put a piece of aluminum opposite each other at the edges of the filters and then tape the filters together on the outside:

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-1.jpg -- this image shows the foil folded -- it shouldn't be.

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-2.jpg -- here's the foil in place with some Scotch tape around the filters' edges.

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-3.jpg -- the setup submerged.

If I had access to a bell jar , I'd melt enough wax to submerge the glass upright, and then place the entire cup/wax/glass in the jar.

If you pull this off successfully, I'll be happy to buy a handful of them off you.

- jim

Jim Lafferty · February 5th, 2005, 11:15 AM

edit -- duplicate post (???)

Keith Kline · February 5th, 2005, 11:54 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

-->>>

looks very "pro" - can you tell us about the sizes in cm or " ?

just curious

filip -->>>

I haven't had a chance to measure it yet, but that one is rather small. If I have a chance when I get home this afternoon I'll write down the demensions. I would say that the silver base part is only about 6" across. It'll be a tight fit, but if i have any luck the guy who i borrowed it from (who also built it) is going to help me make a larger one. Most of the parts are pretty easy to find. Only the one part is somewhat harder to find, but i guess he has an extra, so really I think I just need the 2 ball valves and a plexiglass top for it.

Anyway, I'm off to the store to look for some glass now. I've also been looking for glass cutter to maybe cut my own. Has anyone ever tried that?

Jim Lafferty · February 5th, 2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

I've also been looking for glass cutter to maybe cut my own. Has anyone ever tried that?

Yeah. Finding a circular glass cutter for less than say, $300, that does small diameter circles (less than 3") is pretty impossible.

More correspondence from the emulsions expert:

Quote:

It seems to me that the simplest way to make the sandwich is to coat one side of the glass disk, and then mount it to an uncoated disk. Trying to fill the space between two pieces of glass would require a great deal of precision in the spacing and getting the flow into the space uniformly. My suggestion is to place the glass on a flat surface and coat one side. You could just pour molten wax over the disk, but it will be difficult to get a uniform coating.

However, by applying molten wax and then quickly putting another uncoated disk on top of the molten wax, you may be able to squeeze out the excess wax and create a more uniform laminating film. Microcrystalline wax is inherently tacky, and it will act as a sort of glue to hold the two pieces of glass together once the wax cools. The warmer the wax is when it is applied, the lower it's viscosity and so the thinner the coating.

Applying wax diluted in solvent may be more difficult in this manner, but it should allow for an even thinner coating. Once the wax film has dried, you could place the uncoated glass on top of it. You may then need to heat the sandwich in an oven to soften the wax and ensure good adhesion to both glass surfaces.

Considering what you are trying to do, I would not suggest using a wax emulsion. Chances are that it will not give you enough of a uniform film.

Some of this I thought of already but pose their own problems. I responded to him already and hopefully he'll have some solutions.

- jim

Frank Ladner · February 15th, 2005, 08:17 AM

I have uploaded some new test footage for you guys to check out.

http://209.214.235.122/mwtest

The file is named "MicrowaxAdapter_Test_Condenser.mpg".
Since this was mainly to test the condenser (not grain), I rendered it to MPEG2.

(( I had to download an MPEG2 codec for it to play on the computer here at work. ))

After I got the footage from the camera, I noticed a little piece of debris on the right side of the frame. Other than that, I think it looks ok. Grain may be only slightly noticeable when the aperture is closed. The image isn't 100% even in brightness, so I may get some footage with 2 condensers and see how it compares.

All comments welcome!

Thanks!

Frank Ladner · February 15th, 2005, 11:03 AM

Jim and others,

I am interested in a circular glass cutter to experiment with spinning ground glass (as opposed to spinning plastic CDs). I actually need a glass circle cut around 4" or less (doesn't have to be CD-size).

Would this work:
http://www.glassmart.com/circmate.asp
?

Also, for those interested in cutting diameters less than 3", look at this:
http://www.cathedralstainedglass.com/glasscutters.html
(scroll down to the bottom - "Fletcher Small Circle Cutter - The best for cutting 1/2" to 5" diameter circles.")

February 3rd, 2005, 05:33 PM	#136
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Re: Re: Micro Wax <<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : I know that's alot of wax, but I figure I'd rather have way too much than not enough. -->>> hey Keith, you can always SELL this wax to someone like people on this forum... :) maybe this is idea what to do with the rest of it when you finish your GG. filip -->>> That's actually what I was thinking. The guy I'm borrowing the vacuum chamber from said he might wants so also, so I'm gonna find out how much he wants and get him to chip in. I figured it out and I can get 11lbs. of the 175 and 11lbs. of the 195 for less than $60 shipped to me so if he wants like half I might just get both and try both types. Also am picking up the vacuum chamber tomorrow afternoon, so hopefully I'll get to try making some next week. I asked before, but no one replied. Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious.

February 5th, 2005, 01:31 AM	#141
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Vacuum Okay I picked up this boy boy today... http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg It's not very big, but it should do the job. Actually starting to look for teh parts now to build one fore myself a little larger. Hopefully I'm gonna order some wax this weekend and start trying this thing out. I'm still not sure if it'll pull enough of a vacuum to remove the air from the wax, but it should in theory. This one was designed to remove the air from liquid molding silicon and that's even more thick then teh melted wax. Just to understand what everyone one else has tried. How are you guys going about putting the glass and together in the wax and also what are people using for spacers? Is there any ideal thinkness established yet?

February 5th, 2005, 06:21 AM	#143
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	Re: Re: Re: Micro Wax <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious. -->>> i found very nice glases in optical (oculist/ophthalmologist) shop where they are selling frames for glasses (not for drinking) - and they are cutting it in some strange mashines - any shape you want - and diameter. i did it with 0 dioptry glases for GG and for +7 and more for my testings (macro). everyting worked perfectly. you can ask them to cut VERy preciselly, say 58,1mm or 57,9mm and it will work. i needed for my tests one 52mm and one 58mm diameter glass, and everyting was exellent. and CHEAP! filip

February 5th, 2005, 06:24 AM	#144
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	Re: Vacuum <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Okay I picked up this boy boy today... http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg -->>> looks very "pro" - can you tell us about the sizes in cm or " ? just curious filip

February 5th, 2005, 11:15 AM	#146
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	edit -- duplicate post (???) __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

February 3rd, 2005, 06:00 PM	#137
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	UV filters -- Hoya generic UV filters at whatever diameter fits. They shouldn't run anymore than $14, and can be popped out of their retaining rings easily.

February 4th, 2005, 11:56 PM	#140
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Very cool. Let us know how the experiments go!

February 5th, 2005, 02:01 AM	#142
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Before I forget. I'm still debating on how much of that wax to get. If I end up with extra, is there anyone who might be interested in a pound or 2 for their experiments? I haven't priced the stuff out per pound with shipping and everything, but I'm guessing it would be less than 5 bucks a pound. Prob. more like $4 though. This wouldn't including shipping to you, but I doubt that would be very much for a pound. Just seeing if there might be any interest. Let me know. Thanks.

February 5th, 2005, 11:54 AM	#147
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Re: Re: Vacuum <<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Okay I picked up this boy boy today... http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg -->>> looks very "pro" - can you tell us about the sizes in cm or " ? just curious filip -->>> I haven't had a chance to measure it yet, but that one is rather small. If I have a chance when I get home this afternoon I'll write down the demensions. I would say that the silver base part is only about 6" across. It'll be a tight fit, but if i have any luck the guy who i borrowed it from (who also built it) is going to help me make a larger one. Most of the parts are pretty easy to find. Only the one part is somewhat harder to find, but i guess he has an extra, so really I think I just need the 2 ball valves and a plexiglass top for it. Anyway, I'm off to the store to look for some glass now. I've also been looking for glass cutter to maybe cut my own. Has anyone ever tried that?

February 15th, 2005, 08:17 AM	#149
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	more test footage I have uploaded some new test footage for you guys to check out. http://209.214.235.122/mwtest The file is named "MicrowaxAdapter_Test_Condenser.mpg". Since this was mainly to test the condenser (not grain), I rendered it to MPEG2. (( I had to download an MPEG2 codec for it to play on the computer here at work. )) After I got the footage from the camera, I noticed a little piece of debris on the right side of the frame. Other than that, I think it looks ok. Grain may be only slightly noticeable when the aperture is closed. The image isn't 100% even in brightness, so I may get some footage with 2 condensers and see how it compares. All comments welcome! Thanks!

February 15th, 2005, 11:03 AM	#150
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Jim and others, I am interested in a circular glass cutter to experiment with spinning ground glass (as opposed to spinning plastic CDs). I actually need a glass circle cut around 4" or less (doesn't have to be CD-size). Would this work: http://www.glassmart.com/circmate.asp ? Also, for those interested in cutting diameters less than 3", look at this: http://www.cathedralstainedglass.com/glasscutters.html (scroll down to the bottom - "Fletcher Small Circle Cutter - The best for cutting 1/2" to 5" diameter circles.")