Microcrystalline Wax Techniques?

Keith Kline · April 1st, 2005, 12:33 AM

Okay guys sorry to not post in quite a while. I'm slowly but surely making some progess. I got the circular glass cutter and it works fairly well, but I'm having trouble getting the technique right. I'm planning on hitting a local stained glass shop for info on proper cutting techniques.

So far I've made 3 wax ground glasses, they aren't took bad, but I'm having problems with.... you guessed it.... bubbles. Unfortunitly i had to give the vacuum chamber back before I could get it working right. On the plus side it's pretty easy to make and I'm planning on making one in the next few weeks as soon as i can get a hold of some cheap acrylic sheeting scraps. I'll post some info once I get a new one built for anyone interested.

Other than that i'm slowly making progress. I shot some very bad test footage with some of the glass I made. It turned out okay, but far from acceptable/usable. Part of the problem was I didn't have the distance perfect between the gg and the lens.

Frank: I forget if I asked this before, but what spacing was used for the adapter your currently using?

Joshua Provost · April 1st, 2005, 11:55 AM

To all those working on wax techniques: the whole process is messier than I care to deal with, but when you get to a point where you have something you'd be willing to sell, I'm interested in picking up one of your "wax ground glass" to try out.

Frank Ladner · April 1st, 2005, 12:28 PM

Keith: In the last one I made, folded aluminum strips were used as spacers.

Keith Kline · April 3rd, 2005, 01:24 AM

Okay here's some frame grabs of the latest wax "ground glass" I made. It's far from useable, but it's a start. There is alot of problems with it, but it'll give ya the idea. There is alot of grain visible in the footage, but I think that is from my mistakes in the making and cleaning and not a problem with the wax itself. I'm planning on making more this week and hopefully I'll get better results if I'm more causious on the cleaning of the glass before and after.

Below is a link to my site with some stills. I will post full rez and/or footage when i get a better one made. I just couldn't justify the time to upload more when the results were less than satifactory.

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/mini35/

Steve Brady · April 3rd, 2005, 09:18 PM

So, did anybody check up on the POC stuff (http://www.poc.com/lsd/default.asp) that Matt mentioned? I don't want to bug them if they've already had a bunch of people asking the same thing...

Keith Kline · April 4th, 2005, 05:48 PM

Added a couple pics of some of the wax glasses. They're dirty from being beaten around, but you get teh idea...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/mini35/

Oscar Spierenburg · May 21st, 2005, 06:16 PM

I read most parts of this thread today and started testing. The results are pretty promising to me. In the end, I'd like to make me a MF (6 x 6 cm) GG as a static variation of my 'double DV adapter' (never mind if you didn't notice my thread some time ago)

I made some changes in my test:
I used wax from a normal white candle, which works great so far.
I melted the wax on a piece of glass and put another piece on top (with spacers) and immediately put it on a beard-trimmer (with some paper in between) to vibrate the air out. It works.

The thing is, I didn't have enough time today to get all air out, so when I make some better tests, I'll post the results with images.

Oscar Spierenburg · May 22nd, 2005, 07:07 AM

Today I got rid of all bubbles and got a perfect even layer of (candle) wax between two pieces of glass. I shot a very quick test (a bit shaken) with everything handheld and not zoomed in enough, but here is a frame-grab:

http://s01.picshome.com/a82/wax1.jpg

One thing happened: after a while the wax starts to crackle from one side, like it is coming off on one side of the glass. Anyone had this trouble before? Maybe it cooled off to quickly.

Dan Diaconu · May 22nd, 2005, 08:04 AM

well now.... that's a nice "good morning"! Shoot something even lit and post it and we'll take it from there. So far, so good. (I will hold on "bravo")

Oscar Spierenburg · May 22nd, 2005, 11:37 AM

Well, that's not so easy to do right now...but here is another test with a new GG (I used a mix of candle wax and very fine bee-wax):
http://s01.picshome.com/919/wax6.jpg

It's about 200% or more enlargement of a shot with a DV camcorder to show the sky: the grain you see is video noise.

Now I'm on to refining the GG (re-melting to get the air out and even the wax layer) and do the hard test Dan pointed out. I wanted to shoot a blue sky, but there were clouds today.

Dan Diaconu · May 22nd, 2005, 02:23 PM

Use a fine marker and draw a 24/36 mm frame on the glass. It will help you position it in the center and see about vigneting. Otherwise, is good.
Try a still (2-3M pixel, if you have one handy) of the WG (wax glass) . That might help you see what the image would look like on a big display.

Oscar Spierenburg · May 22nd, 2005, 05:35 PM

Tomorrow I'll test some more and try a still (Fuji s7000 6M pixel)
I keep getting the wax to crackle from the sides (sort of finger pattern). It comes off on one side of the glass so maybe I need to clean the glass more before pour the wax in.
The easiest way so far to get bubble free wax is to tape one side of the pieces of glass together, than form a sort of V with them and tape the bottom to hold that shape and seal it like a cup so you can pour in some wax.
Than hold it against an electric razor (trimmer) to vibrate all air to the surface.
Now you slowly flip the glass together and watch if the bubbles stay on top.
It works.

Here is another frame of a quick test:
http://s01.picshome.com/a82/wax2.jpg
It's a bit messy (enlarged too) but gives an idea.

Dan Diaconu · May 22nd, 2005, 05:53 PM

If you would have had the pleasure to process your own films (chemistry and bath) you would have known that the same think happens when you move the film from a warm bath to a cold water (washing) bath..... due to rapid temp changes on a small footprint. But since you did not (maybe), take it from me. The sides get cold (er) sooner than the center of the glass. The wax shrinks unevenly. Inspect the outer and inner section of the shrunk area: if the out has them smaller and finer and the inner larger and fewer, than that is what happens. Try and place them in a warm (er) place to allow time for "even" cool-down, and see if that makes a diff. If it is small (and outside the usable frame) do not bother…

Oscar Spierenburg · May 22nd, 2005, 06:02 PM

Thanks, I'll try it tomorrow, its two a clock at night here...
I do process my own films, but I never use anything warm, just wait longer.

Dan Diaconu · May 22nd, 2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscar Spier

I do process my own films, but I never use anything warm, just wait longer.

Good for you! That is a priceless experience. Good luck tomorrow.

April 1st, 2005, 12:33 AM	#196
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Update from Me Okay guys sorry to not post in quite a while. I'm slowly but surely making some progess. I got the circular glass cutter and it works fairly well, but I'm having trouble getting the technique right. I'm planning on hitting a local stained glass shop for info on proper cutting techniques. So far I've made 3 wax ground glasses, they aren't took bad, but I'm having problems with.... you guessed it.... bubbles. Unfortunitly i had to give the vacuum chamber back before I could get it working right. On the plus side it's pretty easy to make and I'm planning on making one in the next few weeks as soon as i can get a hold of some cheap acrylic sheeting scraps. I'll post some info once I get a new one built for anyone interested. Other than that i'm slowly making progress. I shot some very bad test footage with some of the glass I made. It turned out okay, but far from acceptable/usable. Part of the problem was I didn't have the distance perfect between the gg and the lens. Frank: I forget if I asked this before, but what spacing was used for the adapter your currently using?

April 3rd, 2005, 01:24 AM	#199
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Tada Okay here's some frame grabs of the latest wax "ground glass" I made. It's far from useable, but it's a start. There is alot of problems with it, but it'll give ya the idea. There is alot of grain visible in the footage, but I think that is from my mistakes in the making and cleaning and not a problem with the wax itself. I'm planning on making more this week and hopefully I'll get better results if I'm more causious on the cleaning of the glass before and after. Below is a link to my site with some stills. I will post full rez and/or footage when i get a better one made. I just couldn't justify the time to upload more when the results were less than satifactory. http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/mini35/

April 4th, 2005, 05:48 PM	#201
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Updated Added a couple pics of some of the wax glasses. They're dirty from being beaten around, but you get teh idea... http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/mini35/

May 22nd, 2005, 07:07 AM	#203
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Today I got rid of all bubbles and got a perfect even layer of (candle) wax between two pieces of glass. I shot a very quick test (a bit shaken) with everything handheld and not zoomed in enough, but here is a frame-grab: http://s01.picshome.com/a82/wax1.jpg One thing happened: after a while the wax starts to crackle from one side, like it is coming off on one side of the glass. Anyone had this trouble before? Maybe it cooled off to quickly. Last edited by Oscar Spierenburg; May 22nd, 2005 at 05:54 PM.

April 1st, 2005, 11:55 AM	#197
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	To all those working on wax techniques: the whole process is messier than I care to deal with, but when you get to a point where you have something you'd be willing to sell, I'm interested in picking up one of your "wax ground glass" to try out.

April 1st, 2005, 12:28 PM	#198
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Keith: In the last one I made, folded aluminum strips were used as spacers.

April 3rd, 2005, 09:18 PM	#200
Steve Brady Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rainham, Kent, UK Posts: 69	So, did anybody check up on the POC stuff (http://www.poc.com/lsd/default.asp) that Matt mentioned? I don't want to bug them if they've already had a bunch of people asking the same thing...

May 21st, 2005, 06:16 PM	#202
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I read most parts of this thread today and started testing. The results are pretty promising to me. In the end, I'd like to make me a MF (6 x 6 cm) GG as a static variation of my 'double DV adapter' (never mind if you didn't notice my thread some time ago) I made some changes in my test: I used wax from a normal white candle, which works great so far. I melted the wax on a piece of glass and put another piece on top (with spacers) and immediately put it on a beard-trimmer (with some paper in between) to vibrate the air out. It works. The thing is, I didn't have enough time today to get all air out, so when I make some better tests, I'll post the results with images.

May 22nd, 2005, 08:04 AM	#204
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	well now.... that's a nice "good morning"! Shoot something even lit and post it and we'll take it from there. So far, so good. (I will hold on "bravo")

May 22nd, 2005, 11:37 AM	#205
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Well, that's not so easy to do right now...but here is another test with a new GG (I used a mix of candle wax and very fine bee-wax): http://s01.picshome.com/919/wax6.jpg It's about 200% or more enlargement of a shot with a DV camcorder to show the sky: the grain you see is video noise. Now I'm on to refining the GG (re-melting to get the air out and even the wax layer) and do the hard test Dan pointed out. I wanted to shoot a blue sky, but there were clouds today.

May 22nd, 2005, 02:23 PM	#206
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Use a fine marker and draw a 24/36 mm frame on the glass. It will help you position it in the center and see about vigneting. Otherwise, is good. Try a still (2-3M pixel, if you have one handy) of the WG (wax glass) . That might help you see what the image would look like on a big display.

May 22nd, 2005, 05:35 PM	#207
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Tomorrow I'll test some more and try a still (Fuji s7000 6M pixel) I keep getting the wax to crackle from the sides (sort of finger pattern). It comes off on one side of the glass so maybe I need to clean the glass more before pour the wax in. The easiest way so far to get bubble free wax is to tape one side of the pieces of glass together, than form a sort of V with them and tape the bottom to hold that shape and seal it like a cup so you can pour in some wax. Than hold it against an electric razor (trimmer) to vibrate all air to the surface. Now you slowly flip the glass together and watch if the bubbles stay on top. It works. Here is another frame of a quick test: http://s01.picshome.com/a82/wax2.jpg It's a bit messy (enlarged too) but gives an idea.

May 22nd, 2005, 05:53 PM	#208
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	If you would have had the pleasure to process your own films (chemistry and bath) you would have known that the same think happens when you move the film from a warm bath to a cold water (washing) bath..... due to rapid temp changes on a small footprint. But since you did not (maybe), take it from me. The sides get cold (er) sooner than the center of the glass. The wax shrinks unevenly. Inspect the outer and inner section of the shrunk area: if the out has them smaller and finer and the inner larger and fewer, than that is what happens. Try and place them in a warm (er) place to allow time for "even" cool-down, and see if that makes a diff. If it is small (and outside the usable frame) do not bother…

May 22nd, 2005, 06:02 PM	#209
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Thanks, I'll try it tomorrow, its two a clock at night here... I do process my own films, but I never use anything warm, just wait longer.