Microcrystalline Wax Techniques?

Oscar Spierenburg · May 23rd, 2005, 05:37 PM

OK, I have made some good progress today, also thanks to Diaconuanian tips.
I am making this wax GG for a 6 x 6 cm (medium format) lens. To get an even surface without crackles (so far....4 hours later) I came up with the simple solution to put the GG (with melted wax, bubble free) between two other pieces of glass of a normal temperature. Than the wax cools off perfectly in a mater of minutes.

Here's some photo's of the GG:
http://s01.picshome.com/bd9/waxgg1.jpg
http://s01.picshome.com/bd9/close.jpg (not perfect yet:some grain visible)

Today I used a mix of paraffine and bee wax.
The last problem that makes this GG not perfect is that after reheating to get the air out, the structure of the wax was visibly less fine.

EDIT:
Of course I get nice DOF with the (previous version) wax:
http://s01.picshome.com/bd9/new3.jpg (bad lighting, video noise)

Dan Diaconu · May 23rd, 2005, 08:49 PM

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frank Ladner · May 24th, 2005, 06:57 AM

Good job, Oscar!

I have also had problems with the glass & wax separating, as you describe. On occasion, I've had this take place not immediately, but a day or so after it was complete.

Before I quit messing with the 35mm adapters, I came to the conclusion that the best wax/glass combination was microcrystalline between two condensers. Here are the reasons:
- Less glass (only 2 condensers as opposed to 2 condensers & 2 filters)
- The thicker glass acts as an insulator to the wax
- If dust gets on the outside of the glass, it will be out of focus due to the thickness of the condensers.

If you have some condensers laying around (I got some cheap ones from SurplusShed.com), you may want to give it a try.

Daves Spi · May 24th, 2005, 08:28 AM

really impressive...

Oscar Spierenburg · May 24th, 2005, 08:50 AM

Thanks all..I tried to wright down the simple technique I used, but rather came up with a drawing (for 8+ kids):
http://s01.picshome.com/546/wax-method.jpg (probably need to zoom in to see the text)

I heat everything on an electric hot plate so i can easily reheat it when necessary. The thing that didn't work yet is to get all air out in one time, which is my aim, because the structure of the wax is about 2x finer before reheating.

I'll post new shots tomorrow. Frank, that's a good idea, but I need to find some condensers with one flat side to do that. Another option is to combine the GG with my anamorphic water prisms. That'll be something.

Matt Kelly · May 24th, 2005, 12:28 PM

Sweeet Deal Oscar! I've been meaning to post on here also, but for the past few months, I've been in my own little world...heh. Now summer's here tho and i'm goin to sit down and get back to work on film equipment.

A far as progress goes, I'm sorta behind everyone. I tried the static ground glass lapped to 1500 grit as a simple start. Worked pretty good in good light. Anything dim or stopping down the 35mm lens made the grain unbearable. Here's something shot with it (warning: bad compression)

http://krabtownfilms.100free.com/trailer3.mov

I'm reaally interested in trying the wax technique. Oscar's method almost seems too easy. Also about my adapter, from what i could tell the lighting (hot spot) looked pretty damn even. I think I just got lucky, but maybe a one flat-sided condenser isn't really necessary. I just have a 10+ macro lens right in front of the ground glass, and on the other end of the tube is another macro from a .45x wide lens (not sure of the rating). This is slapped onto a VX2000 by the way. With my biggest lens this crap sticks out 9 inches though, so a rail system for support is a MUST. It was actually gaff taped together the whole time i filmed with it and it fell apart about 3 times :P. I also figured out an easy solution to LCD screen horiz/vert flipping for the VX2000, maybe i should post somewhere else.

One other note: The whole thing SUCKS in daylight. It looks great, but it's near impossible to pull focus and know what you're doing, since you can hardly make out an image on the flip out LCD and the viewfinder is upsidedown. Gotta figure out a solution to that problem too.

Jim Lafferty · May 25th, 2005, 08:07 AM

Haven't been around in a while, figured I'd stop by today and I see Oscar's keeping the dream alive. I'd like to see how footage through that wax sandwich looks as compared with 3 micron aluminum ox. I've got a lot of 5 micron footage up from interviews I've done recently, and have since shot a lot of stuff with 3 micron glass. All of it looks very good to my eye, and even better to the eyes of someone not knowing to look for grain.

I wasn't ever able to get the wax solutions completely error free :(

Shoot some side-by sides for us Oscar and who knows, I just might have to break out what wax I've got left.

Oscar Spierenburg · May 25th, 2005, 12:35 PM

Good to hear from you wax fellows (Frank and Jim)!
Sorry Jim, I can't see your footage because of my limited internet connection, do you have a still frame?

I don't have a 3 micron glass to make a side by side comparison, but I'll post images of every good progress.
All I need to do is to get the wax bubble free the first time and don't have to melt it between the wax again.
It isn't worth much (didn't focus well and bad weather), but here is a last frame-grab, before I start on a new one:
http://s01.picshome.com/a48/newwax3.jpg

Dan Diaconu · May 25th, 2005, 01:03 PM

Oscar, once you perfect the "technology" let me know, and I might give you a hint about how to get rid of the "hot spot" (even if you are not German!...;-)<
Yes, it is possible! (did some tests in 1979)

Dietmar Zonewicz · May 25th, 2005, 03:09 PM

To eliminate the hotspot, try to melt your wax between two condenser lenses - this is the way Movietube works.

dietmar

Dan Diaconu · May 25th, 2005, 03:31 PM

but not the only way........ (nor the best) hehehe

Oscar Spierenburg · May 25th, 2005, 03:47 PM

I thought using some 12 kilo condenser...about the size of a baseball, but if you have a better solution Dan, let me know...when I'm ready.

I have shot some better footage tonight, just a 500w soft-box, so a bit dark.
I put everything on my site:

http://doublecam.250free.com/

Once I improved the wax GG, I'll be filming the image with two DV camcorders and DIY anamorphic lens again to get a 1080 x 720 resolution. These tests are just normal (cheap)DV.

Dan Diaconu · May 25th, 2005, 03:56 PM

What happened? I saw better images (less grain) before. You are close.
The 12kg wouln't do, due to..... hmmmm... increased cost ;-)<
try a central grad ND filter. (that will "even out" the center with the corners)That is what they use in some wide lenses as well....(no magic and no strings attached)

Oscar Spierenburg · May 25th, 2005, 04:47 PM

Thank you, I'll try that as soon as I get one. If it works it would be magic to me.
I need to explain the images I posted. The grain is not the GG, but video noise because of the light loss. MF gives a lot of light loss. Footage of the chair (now on top: http://doublecam.250free.com/) was with sunlight. As long as I have the 58mm lens and the GG in one hand, focusing with my only other hand and pushing the camcorder to the GG with my nose...I can't get the settings on my DV as well as they should be.
So this was a test only for focusing.

Dan Diaconu · May 25th, 2005, 04:59 PM

Gorgeous! Keep on going Oscar. Looks very good. Now... show us something soft (so we can see if there is any grain in there....) same thing is OK but focus at MOD while the chair is farther away. Better yet, a wall (or sky) but soft focus. (I will not ask for candles...)

May 23rd, 2005, 05:37 PM	#211
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	OK, I have made some good progress today, also thanks to Diaconuanian tips. I am making this wax GG for a 6 x 6 cm (medium format) lens. To get an even surface without crackles (so far....4 hours later) I came up with the simple solution to put the GG (with melted wax, bubble free) between two other pieces of glass of a normal temperature. Than the wax cools off perfectly in a mater of minutes. Here's some photo's of the GG: http://s01.picshome.com/bd9/waxgg1.jpg http://s01.picshome.com/bd9/close.jpg (not perfect yet:some grain visible) Today I used a mix of paraffine and bee wax. The last problem that makes this GG not perfect is that after reheating to get the air out, the structure of the wax was visibly less fine. EDIT: Of course I get nice DOF with the (previous version) wax: http://s01.picshome.com/bd9/new3.jpg (bad lighting, video noise) Last edited by Oscar Spierenburg; May 24th, 2005 at 08:57 AM.

May 24th, 2005, 08:28 AM	#214
Daves Spi Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Czech republic, Prague Posts: 159	really impressive... __________________ Daves At the beginning there was an idea, then the ambition came and the idea became to be a dream... The Satisfied Dream => http://film.datriware.com

May 25th, 2005, 08:07 AM	#217
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Haven't been around in a while, figured I'd stop by today and I see Oscar's keeping the dream alive. I'd like to see how footage through that wax sandwich looks as compared with 3 micron aluminum ox. I've got a lot of 5 micron footage up from interviews I've done recently, and have since shot a lot of stuff with 3 micron glass. All of it looks very good to my eye, and even better to the eyes of someone not knowing to look for grain. I wasn't ever able to get the wax solutions completely error free :( Shoot some side-by sides for us Oscar and who knows, I just might have to break out what wax I've got left. __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

May 25th, 2005, 03:56 PM	#223
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	What happened? I saw better images (less grain) before. You are close. The 12kg wouln't do, due to..... hmmmm... increased cost ;-)< try a central grad ND filter. (that will "even out" the center with the corners)That is what they use in some wide lenses as well....(no magic and no strings attached) Last edited by Dan Diaconu; May 25th, 2005 at 04:22 PM.

May 23rd, 2005, 08:49 PM	#212
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May 24th, 2005, 06:57 AM	#213
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Good job, Oscar! I have also had problems with the glass & wax separating, as you describe. On occasion, I've had this take place not immediately, but a day or so after it was complete. Before I quit messing with the 35mm adapters, I came to the conclusion that the best wax/glass combination was microcrystalline between two condensers. Here are the reasons: - Less glass (only 2 condensers as opposed to 2 condensers & 2 filters) - The thicker glass acts as an insulator to the wax - If dust gets on the outside of the glass, it will be out of focus due to the thickness of the condensers. If you have some condensers laying around (I got some cheap ones from SurplusShed.com), you may want to give it a try.

May 24th, 2005, 08:50 AM	#215
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Thanks all..I tried to wright down the simple technique I used, but rather came up with a drawing (for 8+ kids): http://s01.picshome.com/546/wax-method.jpg (probably need to zoom in to see the text) I heat everything on an electric hot plate so i can easily reheat it when necessary. The thing that didn't work yet is to get all air out in one time, which is my aim, because the structure of the wax is about 2x finer before reheating. I'll post new shots tomorrow. Frank, that's a good idea, but I need to find some condensers with one flat side to do that. Another option is to combine the GG with my anamorphic water prisms. That'll be something.

May 24th, 2005, 12:28 PM	#216
Matt Kelly New Boot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 9	Sweeet Deal Oscar! I've been meaning to post on here also, but for the past few months, I've been in my own little world...heh. Now summer's here tho and i'm goin to sit down and get back to work on film equipment. A far as progress goes, I'm sorta behind everyone. I tried the static ground glass lapped to 1500 grit as a simple start. Worked pretty good in good light. Anything dim or stopping down the 35mm lens made the grain unbearable. Here's something shot with it (warning: bad compression) http://krabtownfilms.100free.com/trailer3.mov I'm reaally interested in trying the wax technique. Oscar's method almost seems too easy. Also about my adapter, from what i could tell the lighting (hot spot) looked pretty damn even. I think I just got lucky, but maybe a one flat-sided condenser isn't really necessary. I just have a 10+ macro lens right in front of the ground glass, and on the other end of the tube is another macro from a .45x wide lens (not sure of the rating). This is slapped onto a VX2000 by the way. With my biggest lens this crap sticks out 9 inches though, so a rail system for support is a MUST. It was actually gaff taped together the whole time i filmed with it and it fell apart about 3 times :P. I also figured out an easy solution to LCD screen horiz/vert flipping for the VX2000, maybe i should post somewhere else. One other note: The whole thing SUCKS in daylight. It looks great, but it's near impossible to pull focus and know what you're doing, since you can hardly make out an image on the flip out LCD and the viewfinder is upsidedown. Gotta figure out a solution to that problem too.

May 25th, 2005, 12:35 PM	#218
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Good to hear from you wax fellows (Frank and Jim)! Sorry Jim, I can't see your footage because of my limited internet connection, do you have a still frame? I don't have a 3 micron glass to make a side by side comparison, but I'll post images of every good progress. All I need to do is to get the wax bubble free the first time and don't have to melt it between the wax again. It isn't worth much (didn't focus well and bad weather), but here is a last frame-grab, before I start on a new one: http://s01.picshome.com/a48/newwax3.jpg

May 25th, 2005, 01:03 PM	#219
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Oscar, once you perfect the "technology" let me know, and I might give you a hint about how to get rid of the "hot spot" (even if you are not German!...;-)< Yes, it is possible! (did some tests in 1979)

May 25th, 2005, 03:09 PM	#220
Dietmar Zonewicz Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Esslingen & Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 47	To eliminate the hotspot, try to melt your wax between two condenser lenses - this is the way Movietube works. dietmar

May 25th, 2005, 03:31 PM	#221
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	but not the only way........ (nor the best) hehehe

May 25th, 2005, 03:47 PM	#222
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I thought using some 12 kilo condenser...about the size of a baseball, but if you have a better solution Dan, let me know...when I'm ready. I have shot some better footage tonight, just a 500w soft-box, so a bit dark. I put everything on my site: http://doublecam.250free.com/ Once I improved the wax GG, I'll be filming the image with two DV camcorders and DIY anamorphic lens again to get a 1080 x 720 resolution. These tests are just normal (cheap)DV.

May 25th, 2005, 04:47 PM	#224
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Thank you, I'll try that as soon as I get one. If it works it would be magic to me. I need to explain the images I posted. The grain is not the GG, but video noise because of the light loss. MF gives a lot of light loss. Footage of the chair (now on top: http://doublecam.250free.com/) was with sunlight. As long as I have the 58mm lens and the GG in one hand, focusing with my only other hand and pushing the camcorder to the GG with my nose...I can't get the settings on my DV as well as they should be. So this was a test only for focusing.

May 25th, 2005, 04:59 PM	#225
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Gorgeous! Keep on going Oscar. Looks very good. Now... show us something soft (so we can see if there is any grain in there....) same thing is OK but focus at MOD while the chair is farther away. Better yet, a wall (or sky) but soft focus. (I will not ask for candles...)