Microcrystalline Wax Techniques?

Oscar Spierenburg · May 25th, 2005, 05:35 PM

Thanks. OK tomorrow I'll climb on the roof and shoot the sky. Right now I can only present you stars and a moon. This weekend I'll make a new GG with and try it without remelting the wax.

Oscar Spierenburg · May 26th, 2005, 08:01 AM

Here is some first footage from my adventures on the roof:

http://s01.picshome.com/a48/roof1b.jpg

http://s01.picshome.com/a48/roof6.jpg

Don't look at the dust, remember I'm on the roof.

Daves Spi · May 26th, 2005, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscar Spier

Don't look at the dust, remember I'm on the roof.

lol

Never thought this can be done by wax...

Frank Ladner · May 26th, 2005, 12:10 PM

Oscar: Keep up the good work!

Also, the hotspot can be eliminated with the right thickness of wax combined with a condenser (or condenserS):
http://209.214.235.122/mwtest/Microw..._Condenser.mpg

Oscar Spierenburg · May 26th, 2005, 12:51 PM

Frank, thanks for posting, I'll do something about the hotspot on my next GG, how do you like Dan's idea? (central grad filter)
Here is an image of the worst case in which you can actually see some grain of the wax (because of the remelting) in the corners:

http://s01.picshome.com/a48/roof3.jpg

Frank Ladner · May 26th, 2005, 01:01 PM

>> how do you like Dan's idea?
I'm sure that would help. It would certainly be a whole lot better than doing some sort of gradient overlay in post (After Effects, Premiere, etc...) because you'd be keeping the data in-camera, as opposed to some of it being blown out.

I think the main thing is getting a surface that's diffuse enough (too thin and the center light will shine right through), and having condensers to refocus and concentrate/evenly distribute the light when it hits the intermediate screen.

As far as the remelting, I believe you are correct in what you mentioned earlier: If you can get away with having to melt the wax only once, that is the best method. If you can get a really, really clean inside glass surface (the part that makes contact w/ the wax), and use your 'cup method', along with a vibrating device, I think that's a winner.

Oscar Spierenburg · May 26th, 2005, 05:51 PM

......so I made another GG tonight. I had all the air out before I flipped the sides together, but I didn't succeed well enough in cooling the thing properly. It's a matter of seconds to put the GG between two 'cool' pieces of glass.

Besides that, it's much better, because I got the spacers thinner so I can shoot in lower light conditions. I also checked out a lens from a super8 as a very thin condenser for these shots.
Here is some footage I shot tonight with a soft 200W light:

http://doublecam.250free.com/ (first three images - takes some time to load)

Leo Mandy · May 26th, 2005, 08:44 PM

That is a static shot, right Oscar? It looks pretty good in low light! Next you have to try it outdoors at night, that is the true test - but I can't believe the progress you make, my friend. It seems everything you touch turns to gold!

Oscar Spierenburg · May 27th, 2005, 10:11 AM

Thanks Leo, make that silver, I'm not done yet.
I visited the roof again:

http://s01.picshome.com/a48/shoe.jpg (you can see crackles on the side because of wrong cooling - most grain in the sky is video noise)

http://s01.picshome.com/a48/2e-1.jpg

I some circumstances, there is a little bit of grain visible in a movement, but the wax didn't cool down right (maybe that's the last bump to a golden GG if there is one...grrmff)

Frank Ladner · May 27th, 2005, 10:14 AM

Looks like you're getting an image with even light distribution (ie. minimum hotspot or vignetting)

Good job! Keep the posts coming!

Oscar Spierenburg · May 27th, 2005, 04:47 PM

My cat was also on the roof, so I shot her...I mean on tape:
http://s01.picshome.com/a48/fifa2.jpg

I remelted this wax-GG tonight, but it didn't work out. I'll start on a brand new one this weekend. With the lens from the super8 I've been using as condenser, the vignetting is gone, but not the real 'hotspot' with extreme light. I think a combination of the (very very thin) condenser and Dan's central grad filter would be perfect.

Dan Diaconu · May 27th, 2005, 05:37 PM

I have shoot Felix (my cat) and he did not seem to mind too much... (nor get impressed by Z1 and MPIC and all my efforts....all the same... ;-)<
The image is beautifull, Oscar.

Leo Mandy · May 28th, 2005, 08:48 AM

What part of the lens did you use from the Super 8 Oscar? I have a few lying around, I might tinker if it will get me my condenser!

Oscar Spierenburg · May 28th, 2005, 01:02 PM

The super8 camera I used (i.e. never use again) had a front lens as big, maybe a bit less than the image on the GG. The lens was a zoom and when you take it apart, the back is a tube with a small lens, but the font two large lenses are usable condensers. Especially the back lens (second from the front) Good luck.
I noticed the grain is almost gone using this condenser, it seems to avoid the grain getting shadows, because the light is coming in straight.

EDIT: The hotspot as an overexposed area isn't gone with this, but the dark sides are. For the hotspot, I'll try Dan's filter.

Oscar Spierenburg · May 29th, 2005, 06:44 PM

I made a new wax GG today. After two or three miserable ones I came up with a good one, but with a tiny hair in the middle.
Despite that, I tested it and in general it turned out pretty good:

http://s01.picshome.com/a48/rollei2.jpg

Here is one zoomed in two times with the DV and shot two times (left+right) like I am doing with my double DV setup.
http://s01.picshome.com/a48/kanterbr_uhdv1b.jpg (macro shot of a small beer bottle)
So in almost HDV resolution still not much grain, although it's there in certain movements and area's. But I'm not finished yet of course....

May 27th, 2005, 10:11 AM	#234
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Another climb to the roof. Thanks Leo, make that silver, I'm not done yet. I visited the roof again: http://s01.picshome.com/a48/shoe.jpg (you can see crackles on the side because of wrong cooling - most grain in the sky is video noise) http://s01.picshome.com/a48/2e-1.jpg I some circumstances, there is a little bit of grain visible in a movement, but the wax didn't cool down right (maybe that's the last bump to a golden GG if there is one...grrmff)

May 25th, 2005, 05:35 PM	#226
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Thanks. OK tomorrow I'll climb on the roof and shoot the sky. Right now I can only present you stars and a moon. This weekend I'll make a new GG with and try it without remelting the wax.

May 26th, 2005, 08:01 AM	#227
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Here is some first footage from my adventures on the roof: http://s01.picshome.com/a48/roof1b.jpg http://s01.picshome.com/a48/roof6.jpg Don't look at the dust, remember I'm on the roof.

May 26th, 2005, 12:10 PM	#229
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Oscar: Keep up the good work! Also, the hotspot can be eliminated with the right thickness of wax combined with a condenser (or condenserS): http://209.214.235.122/mwtest/Microw..._Condenser.mpg

May 26th, 2005, 12:51 PM	#230
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Frank, thanks for posting, I'll do something about the hotspot on my next GG, how do you like Dan's idea? (central grad filter) Here is an image of the worst case in which you can actually see some grain of the wax (because of the remelting) in the corners: http://s01.picshome.com/a48/roof3.jpg

May 26th, 2005, 01:01 PM	#231
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	>> how do you like Dan's idea? I'm sure that would help. It would certainly be a whole lot better than doing some sort of gradient overlay in post (After Effects, Premiere, etc...) because you'd be keeping the data in-camera, as opposed to some of it being blown out. I think the main thing is getting a surface that's diffuse enough (too thin and the center light will shine right through), and having condensers to refocus and concentrate/evenly distribute the light when it hits the intermediate screen. As far as the remelting, I believe you are correct in what you mentioned earlier: If you can get away with having to melt the wax only once, that is the best method. If you can get a really, really clean inside glass surface (the part that makes contact w/ the wax), and use your 'cup method', along with a vibrating device, I think that's a winner.

May 26th, 2005, 05:51 PM	#232
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	......so I made another GG tonight. I had all the air out before I flipped the sides together, but I didn't succeed well enough in cooling the thing properly. It's a matter of seconds to put the GG between two 'cool' pieces of glass. Besides that, it's much better, because I got the spacers thinner so I can shoot in lower light conditions. I also checked out a lens from a super8 as a very thin condenser for these shots. Here is some footage I shot tonight with a soft 200W light: http://doublecam.250free.com/ (first three images - takes some time to load)

May 26th, 2005, 08:44 PM	#233
Leo Mandy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 749	That is a static shot, right Oscar? It looks pretty good in low light! Next you have to try it outdoors at night, that is the true test - but I can't believe the progress you make, my friend. It seems everything you touch turns to gold!

May 27th, 2005, 10:14 AM	#235
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Looks like you're getting an image with even light distribution (ie. minimum hotspot or vignetting) Good job! Keep the posts coming!

May 27th, 2005, 04:47 PM	#236
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	My cat was also on the roof, so I shot her...I mean on tape: http://s01.picshome.com/a48/fifa2.jpg I remelted this wax-GG tonight, but it didn't work out. I'll start on a brand new one this weekend. With the lens from the super8 I've been using as condenser, the vignetting is gone, but not the real 'hotspot' with extreme light. I think a combination of the (very very thin) condenser and Dan's central grad filter would be perfect.

May 27th, 2005, 05:37 PM	#237
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	I have shoot Felix (my cat) and he did not seem to mind too much... (nor get impressed by Z1 and MPIC and all my efforts....all the same... ;-)< The image is beautifull, Oscar.

May 28th, 2005, 08:48 AM	#238
Leo Mandy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 749	What part of the lens did you use from the Super 8 Oscar? I have a few lying around, I might tinker if it will get me my condenser!

May 28th, 2005, 01:02 PM	#239
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	The super8 camera I used (i.e. never use again) had a front lens as big, maybe a bit less than the image on the GG. The lens was a zoom and when you take it apart, the back is a tube with a small lens, but the font two large lenses are usable condensers. Especially the back lens (second from the front) Good luck. I noticed the grain is almost gone using this condenser, it seems to avoid the grain getting shadows, because the light is coming in straight. EDIT: The hotspot as an overexposed area isn't gone with this, but the dark sides are. For the hotspot, I'll try Dan's filter.

May 29th, 2005, 06:44 PM	#240
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I made a new wax GG today. After two or three miserable ones I came up with a good one, but with a tiny hair in the middle. Despite that, I tested it and in general it turned out pretty good: http://s01.picshome.com/a48/rollei2.jpg Here is one zoomed in two times with the DV and shot two times (left+right) like I am doing with my double DV setup. http://s01.picshome.com/a48/kanterbr_uhdv1b.jpg (macro shot of a small beer bottle) So in almost HDV resolution still not much grain, although it's there in certain movements and area's. But I'm not finished yet of course....