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Old November 3rd, 2005, 01:32 PM   #556
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Guys, I was deeply misunderstood. The reason why I used the comas is because what I meant by "breaking the patent" is that I think it's great to see that there are other options for people who cannot afford expensive equipment. I'm far from encouraging anybody to rob other people ideas. I think everybody knows that most of the time there is a reason why a certain product costs a certain price, hence most of the time they will not obtain the exact same results by chosing a cheaper option. But I like to know that the cheaper option is available. For instance, isn't everybody happy that the G35 is way cheaper than the mini35? I know that I am very very happy about it. The situation is the same with other products. I'm sure there is a lot of people who love the fact there is even cheaper alternatives. And just for the record, in my personal opinion I strongly belive that the G35 is the best adapter there is and I can't wait to buy mine.
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Old November 3rd, 2005, 01:55 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by Rafael Lopes
Guys, I was deeply misunderstood. The reason why I used the comas is because what I meant by "breaking the patent" is that I think it's great to see that there are other options for people who cannot afford expensive equipment. I'm far from encouraging anybody to rob other people ideas. I think everybody knows that most of the time there is a reason why a certain product costs a certain price, hence most of the time they will not obtain the exact same results by chosing a cheaper option. But I like to know that the cheaper option is available. For instance, isn't everybody happy that the G35 is way cheaper than the mini35? I know that I am very very happy about it. The situation is the same with other products. I'm sure there is a lot of people who love the fact there is even cheaper alternatives. And just for the record, in my personal opinion I strongly belive that the G35 is the best adapter there is and I can't wait to buy mine.
Thank you Rafael,
Please don't take my post as an attack. I just feel strongly towards patent infringements and have spent the money to make sure that we are not doing that. There are other options for people who cannot afford the "expensive top of the line". That is what the DIY movement is all about. When you start selling a product that infringes on a claim that is when you get into trouble. To be fair I don't think you mean "Breaking patents" so much as developing cheaper more efficient methods. I know its semantics, but when you get into patent law it's ALL semantics. I would hate for someone to be labled as a "patent breaker" who is not. You dig? :)

Cheers,

Jonathan-
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Old November 3rd, 2005, 02:06 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by Rafael Lopes
right now I'm very thankful to all of those who were willing to "break the patents" and make the "poor mens' " life a bit easier. THANK YOU! ;)
You are only supporting "forget the biped walk, let's climb back into trees" as perfectly clear explained by Bill Porter in the post above.

Same was with Napster and followers. "Share" music instead of BUY a CD and the artists lost motivation to create. Rip of good ideas, turn them into "whatever", and offer them for a low price. The market will help the "turn back to stone age" buying the fakes. Was there anyone ever able to stop it? Not without a lot of bad blood and law suites and tons of money in legal fees.

Morals evolve with education. The closer to beast, the less moral. Bite before you get bitten, (and run with the dough). Could anyone argue with an alligator?

Some spend years on R&D and others still, or, unable to understand, come up with "their own inventions" and the market applauds them for how "smart they are" for the "short sighted interpretation" of ones work.

I might be a dreamer, but I still believe the good will prevail and all will act in the end as human beings. (or.. I might remain a dreamer)
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Old November 3rd, 2005, 02:49 PM   #559
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I started this discussion because we talked about the MovieTube. Bill and Jonathan say about the same as me in a way.
Rafael, only as long as people make something for their own use and share it on these forums, it's OK. But when more and more people are selling these things (unless it's an invention of there own like the FF gears of Dan) on these boards, I think there will be trouble some day. I think on the day when it becomes a real threat to the original manufacturers.
I hope (I'm sure) Jonathan doesn't mind me and others speculating about the G35 and microwax (back to the thread finally) and trying to achieve the same results, as long as we don't start selling a wax adapters. That was my point, back to the wax?
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Old November 3rd, 2005, 04:20 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by Oscar Spier
I started this discussion because we talked about the MovieTube. Bill and Jonathan say about the same as me in a way.
Rafael, only as long as people make something for their own use and share it on these forums, it's OK. But when more and more people are selling these things (unless it's an invention of there own like the FF gears of Dan) on these boards, I think there will be trouble some day. I think on the day when it becomes a real threat to the original manufacturers.
I hope (I'm sure) Jonathan doesn't mind me and others speculating about the G35 and microwax (back to the thread finally) and trying to achieve the same results, as long as we don't start selling a wax adapters. That was my point, back to the wax?
Well put, What makes you say we have a wax adapter? :P I love this speculation. It cracks me up :P

Jonathan-
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Old November 3rd, 2005, 10:06 PM   #561
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What makes you say we have a wax adapter?
I saw an unmarked jar filled with what appeared to be Mobilwax 2305 sitting next to an XL-2 once. MYSTERY SOLVED!!

Next up, is Loch Ness Monster a plesiosaur or a floating log??
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Old November 3rd, 2005, 11:58 PM   #562
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Regardless of if it's microwax or not, it's got producing good images and that's what counts.

By the way, I think microwax produces far nicer images than GG in most cases (the highlights are handled in a nicer way, contrast is changed for the better) so I would be thrilled if the screen were microwax, despite the fact that this would mean the key element of a $1000 adapter costs under a dollar in costs and labor, potentially. If it works, it works.
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Old November 4th, 2005, 01:56 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Matthew Wauhkonen
despite the fact that this would mean the key element of a $1000 adapter costs under a dollar in costs and labor, potentially.
You seem to forget the thousands of $ spent and sleepless nights of many months leading to $1 screen THAT WORKS !!!!!!!!!!!
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Old November 4th, 2005, 12:03 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by Matthew Wauhkonen
the fact that this would mean the key element of a $1000 adapter costs under a dollar in costs and labor, potentially.
Not a fact.

To mass produce wax screens means a huge investment in engineering and producing a machine to build them. Or, to do them by hand, means higher per-part cost. Either way, there is a lot more expensive infrastructure around making them. This means a hell of a lot more than $1 per screen.

Having a background in process engineering, when I have spoken with manufacturers of wax screens I have come away feeling their prices were quite economical. Nobody selling a $100 screen is getting rich, overcharging the consumer, or even making any money really.

Most retail consumers look at a simple part and make the same mistake of seeing PER PART cost and not the amortized cost of everything it took to get there. To offer anything as a business you need at least one person there full time. Add their salary into the mix. These are hard costs. I have seen this same mistake many times before. This gross misunderstanding is why so many businesses fail: people go into business assuming a per-part cost of $1 is $1. Really a per-part cost of $1, is unit cost X units sold per year / all expenses (payroll + rent + materials + equipment + advertising + inboound freight + marketing (if any) + electrictity + phones + taxes + insurance + every other thing that eats away at the bottom line). Try it, you'll see why most niche artisans like Dave Maxwell and his screens, are charging $200+ for a screen and still living a pretty meager life.
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Old November 4th, 2005, 06:03 PM   #565
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[preach]Of course your right Bill, but the whole discussion is not really of any use. It would be unappropriated for Jim to produce and sell wax screen on a big scale because Frank did a lot of work and research before him. It would be unappropriated for me to do it because Frank and Jim were doing it before me, It would be unappropriated for Matthew or anyone else here to sell wax screens because the point of these forums are to share your ideas. If suddenly people think: hey, that's a good idea, I can make money out of that!, then this whole forum is going the wrong way IMO.

I suggest to go back to the wax discussion, I'll be making a new one soon, so I'll sell...hmm..share my results next week or so.
[/preach]
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Old November 5th, 2005, 02:04 AM   #566
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Can I buy one for a dollar?
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Old November 5th, 2005, 07:03 AM   #567
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I'll sell you one for a dollar.

Also, you totally missed the point of my post. I merely meant that it's funny how the least expensive solution can sometimes be the best, even in something with otherwise expensive parts. I don't consider $100 for a wax screen to be a rip off at all.
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Old November 5th, 2005, 11:00 AM   #568
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It would be unappropriated for Matthew or anyone else here to sell wax screens because the point of these forums are to share your ideas.
Who's to say someone is required to make their own wax screen if they want one? If someone's willing to pay enough money for a premade wax screen, I don't see why someone with experience in that area already can't say "Oh here, I'll make one for you and charge you reasonably for parts and labor because extravagant prices would scare you off anyway."
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Old November 5th, 2005, 02:13 PM   #569
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Ben, I was talking about people selling on a 'bigger' scale. Anyway let me put it this way, I posted a guide on the web on how to make a waxscreen. No one but me and Frank have succeeded (without dust and all), that's why I post the guide, so people can do it themselves and maybe improve the method, like Matthew or someone else. But not to have people making screens and sell them. Is that so strange? It used to be the spirit on this forum.

But that's not the discussion, I only said (some post up) if people are selling everything so easily, some day it will turn into a lot of trouble with the companies that own the patents.
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Old November 5th, 2005, 03:19 PM   #570
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Oh. Gotcha.

By the way, I've been experimenting with different options instead of wax that are a bit unconventional (sugar water, hot glue, scotch tape) but haven't come up with anything fantastic. I'm betting there's something out there that can beat wax or at least match it...
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