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Old December 30th, 2004, 11:56 AM   #91
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I went out and bought a whole assortment of cheap picture frames of various sizes and started experimenting with getting a thinner layer of wax.

I was afraid of using just one strip of unfolded aluminum because it looked like such a thin space inbetween the glass that I didin't know if the wax could seep through. Anyway, I went ahead and tried it and was very pleased. I now have a wax surface suitable for low(er)-light inside shooting.
(However, it still wasn't completely bubble-free. In fact, I believe that it is harder to get a bubble-free THIN layer of wax than it is for thicker layers.)
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Old December 30th, 2004, 12:00 PM   #92
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We must've been typing at the same time. LOL!

Thanks for the update! Looking forward to some footage! :-)

When I was playing with AO5 ground glass adapters, I would do the following trick with the footage to reduce grain:

(In After Effects)

- Scale the footage (assuming 720x480) to 1620x1080
- Apply the Median filter set to around 3
- Render back out with the resize option set to 720x480

This trick works better with closeup footage where you have a large surface area of the same tone or color.
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Old December 30th, 2004, 12:07 PM   #93
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Quote:
In fact, I believe that it is harder to get a bubble-free THIN layer of wax than it is for thicker layers.
This is exactly right. I've done some crazy things in attempts to get the bubbles out -- even went so far as to separate a single strand of wire from a bundle of wire attached to a 9v batery adapter (stripping the insulation and pulling the bundle apart), then using that to slide it in between both filters :D Yesterday, I used a straight razor to lightly pry the two pieces of glass apart while tapping their surfaces with a coffee stirrer...

It looks like it might've payed off, too.


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Old December 30th, 2004, 12:28 PM   #94
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Frank,

Here's an idea that maybe the two of us can work on and come up with a solution -- would you think it possible to assemble the wax sandwich in a pool of already melted wax?

Using tweezers, tongs, foil and whatnot, I could get the glass lined up ontop of one another, but I'm then confused about how to keep them together. Perhaps the solution would be to lay them ontop of one another in a very shallow pool of wax -- then get them lined up and let the wax cool completely, and then cut the glass out.

This way, bubbles should pose too great a problem -- if you find one, just separate the glasses or move them around until it's gone.

My worries are what might come of the glass given that there's nothing providing pressure sufficient to keep them together, and together in a way that is even across their surfaces.

But...it's a thought.

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Old December 30th, 2004, 12:30 PM   #95
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Well after all that trouble I hope it pays off for you.

If only there was some sort of "Do It Yourself Bubble-Free Wax Adapter Kit" you could buy at the hobby store. LOL!

Wonder if you could take a thin strand of wire like you describe, form a squared "U" shape with it (well, that depends on your glass shape - circle or square), slip it inbetween the two pieces of glass, THEN submerge it. After the wax fills into the glass, you could pull the wire up, dragging any bubbles with it.
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Old December 30th, 2004, 12:35 PM   #96
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I'd thought of that exact thing but haven't had the chance to try it -- the wire I have here is a bit too short.

Another piece of advice/experience -- I find that dipping the glass into the wax verrry slowwwwly curtails a lot of bubble troubles. Doesn't eliminate them completely, but helps.

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Old December 30th, 2004, 12:42 PM   #97
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My previous post applies to the post before your last post. LOL! (Unless you post a post before I post this post.) :-)

Using that method would definately help eliminate the bubble problem but, as you mentioned, the difficulty would be keeping the glass together. I think it could be done in a shallow dish. One of the glasses would need the foil spacers "stuck" to it in some way. With distances this small, even glue would throw the spacing off. The best thing might be to have a large piece of aluminum - enough to form a "jacket" around the glass, leaving two sides folded over onto the top of the glass, providing the two spacer strips. The aluminum could be attached to the back of the glass some kind of way, leaving the two side strips just as they are.

Then you could just set that in the wax, aluminum side down, and set the top piece of glass over it. You would need to dip the top piece in such a way that it doesn't trap bubbles underneath. Then you would just set it over the top of the other glass so that it is alighed properly.

What would be nice in this type of setup is a pre-shaped holder (one that could be submerged in hot wax) that would keep the glass pieces in alignment.
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Old December 30th, 2004, 12:45 PM   #98
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Jim: I bet that's where I'm messing up. I'm just dropping the glass in there and hoping that the bubbles escape before the wax cools. THANKS! Easing the glass in slowly makes perfect sense.
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Old December 30th, 2004, 12:51 PM   #99
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You've got some good ideas there.

I was thinking that I could get the aluminum into the wax no problem -- I'd cut it in large enough pieces that I'd just have to move it to the edge of the bottom glass, and I'd then use the top glass to clamp down on the foil and flatten it out.

Then, it'd be a matter of using something weighted, with the approximate diameter of the glass pieces and with a soft surface so as to not scratch the glass -- place this ontop of the glass and let the wax harden.

I'm thinking I'd like to do all this in a tempered glass baking dish -- like the ones they advertise on TV that show food being cooked through a transparent surface. A small dish would be prefect.

With the pieces of glass separate of one another, I'd put them in the wax and then move them around, inspecting for bubbles before sandwiching it all together.

Hmmm... I need some more money to try all this out and the holidays have tapped me out until middle of next week.

- jim
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Old December 30th, 2004, 02:29 PM   #100
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Here's the initial, raw footage -- with minor color curves and correction, flipped (this is uploading now and I have to leave for work -- will be finished in about 1/2 hour):

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/wax_reference.avi

Here is my initial grain pattern image:

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/grain_pattern.png

I have a theory as to how Chris's technique can be replicated in Vegas, but haven't had the time to test it fully:

Three tracks.

On the top most, Copy 1 of a clip. In the middle, the grain pattern, inverted with heavy contrast to isolate the brighter parts and make the darker parts opaque. On the bottom, another copy of the same clip on the top track.

Use the mask generator so the top most track "punches through" the grain pattern where it is lightest to the footage below. Adjust the brightness 'til it looks right.

Render out.

Done.

- jim
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Old December 30th, 2004, 02:59 PM   #101
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Jim: From what I've seen so far, it looks very good!
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Old December 30th, 2004, 08:54 PM   #102
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Jim,

I can't seem to access the grain reference image. Help? :)
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Old December 31st, 2004, 04:13 AM   #103
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Jim and Frank.

When I was talking about using PVC wood glue (the white stuff water washable) to hold the foil, I might have confused you. I only glued the foil to one piece of glass and only with tack spots. I didn't use a continuous rim of foil. I only used small squares. To keep them immobile until the glue set, I rolled them over the edge of the glass and trimmmed them off later.

By this method you can place your pieces of glass in the wax separately and get the bubbles off before bring them together. If there are air inclusions, just lift one glass away and repeat bringing them together. After you have got a good inclusion, sit your composite disk on top of a metal thimble or something just under the surface of your wax pot so you can gouge it out of the mix after it gels but before it goes really hard. Take care because the disks will separate if you go at it too soon.

Sorry I did not tell you sooner but I thought you were both already doing thin layers and had gone to thicker layers to solve some sort of problem.
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Old December 31st, 2004, 05:19 AM   #104
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to jim

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Shaw : Jim,

I can't seem to access the grain reference image. Help? :) -->>>

me too!

but i normally downloaded the movie, which is (the movie) btw very exiting.

jim - OT - i can see that you have a lot of marvelous films on your shelve :)

filip
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Old December 31st, 2004, 01:03 PM   #105
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Sorry about that, the correct url for the grain pattern image is: http://ideaspora.net/grainless/grain_pattern.png

- jim
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