Consolidated XL1 35mm Adapter Thread

Stephen Birdsong · October 11th, 2004, 10:56 AM

I don't think we should propose it as something they should consider adding to their catolog, or marketing to dv enthusiasts, we should approach it as requesting them to make a certain amount for our purposes and requesting a price quote.

My opionion is that this is an alternative to going to a machine shop. A place you give your specs and they build what you need, because they have the tools and expertise.

Sigma is in the same position as that, except they build lenses, that is what they do. We do not need them to do massive R&D. We give them the specs, they should know how to accomplish it without any R&D.

We need way to attach it to our cameras, some sort of xl mount. We need a lens that will allow our cameras to capture a 36x24mm frame off of a gg, and a mount in front of that gg at the correct flange depth. To a lens maker, this may be a strange request, but certainly not difficult or prohibitively expensive. There are no moving elements, everything could be locked down.

Xl mount could be a problem if it needs to be licensed. for the front element, I would vote c-mount or f-mount. Im not terribly interested in sigma lenses, but as you say, it may be a selling point for them.

stephen

Stephen Birdsong · October 11th, 2004, 10:59 AM

by the way, I've read in other threads where people have arranged this sort of deal with japanese lens manufactureres, this is why I am optomistic..

Stephen Birdsong · October 11th, 2004, 03:14 PM

not 100% sure, but it seems if they will send you the relay lens, than all you need is to build the gg and mount in front of it. if you look at the pdf of the innards of the lens, you can probably deduce where the "relay" ends and the gg element part begins. If there are no more optics (besides gg), then yes, all you have to do is put a gg in front of it and get a mount.

everyone check out the other thread, its starting to see some more life.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...5&pagenumber=3
stephen birdsong

Stephen Birdsong · October 11th, 2004, 04:29 PM

I was ordering my gg from optosigma today, and I spoke with an engineer. They do custom manufacturing. Its as simple as that.

He gave me lots of advice on the lens (alot of which I did not understand). And he said that I need to figure out exactly what I need and they would do it.

that was easy.

Of course, I did not get a price, that could be the catch.

He spoke of it as if it were easy, and something he could do in half an hour. (design the lens).

so, back over to the other thread where, hopefully, we can get this ball rolling and figure this out.

stephen

Wayne Morellini · October 12th, 2004, 05:01 AM

Mike, I'm not really biting into the debate, I just gave advice about the most economical and marketable solutions. If you go to a pricey manufacturer with a low volume market you will get very expensive product, like just for XL users (we are talking thousands of units to start to get economies of scale, hundreds maybe not). You might as well go to an engineering firm with a worked out design for a custom order. If you have high volume, with quality low priced manufacturer, then you can get lower price than going to an engineering firm with small order. My design suggestion allows an manufacturer to target hundreds of thousands of users. The price of adaptors is cents (for casing) to dollers (for mechanical lense control mechanisms) in this sort of volume. The price difference between 35mm and MF focus screen/condensor lenses (furthure relay can be normal size) to their respective manufacturers is going to be dollers as well. But this is only an idealistic suggestion, MF is not really needed for most people). You could specify only the most common lense mountsd (Nikon, Canon, etc). So if you pick the right company they can get the parts cheap, or manufacture them cheaper, but probably not in runs of less than thousands (hundred thousand is even cheaper).

You probably could go to them with a XL1 system , with a backup universal system suggestion if they don't think the XL market is big enough to worry about for less than $5-10K a peice.

Well that's my input, I'm not really interested in it for myself (though maybe a universal one). Just remember when the HD Canon models come out you'll want one for that too (so the best GG would be best to start with, I'm wondering about something simular to the Canon laser bright focusing screens which have 220 million microlenses) . Mike, have you thought of talking with people in the Alda/Agnus threads and Canon forum to gather interest. Like you, the people there have also been talking about ordering batches of custom adaptors in times past. The people there could probably input into a complete design that could be made at an engineering firm?

Wish you luck.

Thanks

Wayne.

Kevin Burnfield · October 12th, 2004, 08:38 PM

Okay, we need to start somewhere and I guess we need to decide where that is.

Are we going to start looking around for someone capable of fabricating an adapter for a relay lens to attach to the XL1s?

This seems to be the place to start for me--- at least I think it is.

Anders Floe · October 13th, 2004, 05:05 AM

Do you think that the P+S relaylens has somekind of a freshnel lens built in?

Aaron Shaw · October 13th, 2004, 09:52 AM

Just yesterday I was reading through the latest issue of "Outdoor Photographer" and ran across an ad for two new Sigma lenses.

The interesting thing though is that they were designed *specifically* for small format digital SLRs! Isn't this _precisely_ the thing we have been needing? I'm not sure how large the chips in a DSLR are but if they are currently making lenses for the purpose of removing the magnification factor I think they could certainly work something up for 1/3" chips...

This, if I understand the problem correctly, would give us 35mm lenses without the need for GG and loss of light.

Robert Mann Z. · October 13th, 2004, 10:10 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Shaw : The interesting thing though is that they were designed *specifically* for small format digital SLRs! -->>>

canon makes these as well they are called "efs" lenses, they basically set the rear element back so its not so close to the chip, reality is i feel its more marketing then anything else, i have seen little difference using these types...

as for lens petition its a good idea, i feel that there is a market for primes with real manual focus controls...with 3 generations of the xl mount out there it should pay off well, if a mini 35 can be made for 10gees by an upstart a tamaron or sigma should be able to build great lenses with there eyes closed...

with all this talk about an open lens system for under 6 grand i still can't put a prime on my camera for under 10grand

Aaron Shaw · October 13th, 2004, 10:13 AM

Found one of the lenses. Couldn't find the other oddly...

The two new lenses are 18-55mm and 55-200mm giving good coverage of both wide angle and telephoto. Both will cost MSRP $319 USD (together).

http://www.sigma-photo.com/Html/pages/18_50_EX_DC.htm

Aaron Shaw · October 13th, 2004, 10:14 AM

>>
canon makes these as well they are called "efs" lenses, they basically set the rear element back so its not so close to the chip, reality is i feel its more marketing then anything else, i have seen little difference using these types...<<

Really? That's too bad :(

Rai Orz · October 13th, 2004, 01:09 PM

P+S have no own lens. They use a 25mm high quality c-mount lens from Schneider Kreuznach. This lens is a very fast lens (under 1), so also 16mm filmmakers love this lens since years. Here in germany the lens cost round 900,- euro.

Close behind the GG is a condenser lens. This is because the hotspot, but P+S use NO other lens. With the Schneider lens there is no vignetting in the image and it can focus on short distance. The distance between lens and GG is round 11cm (prisms + mirror = 10cm).

If you wont a bright picture, but without DOF, you can remove the GG (but not the condenser).

This way work a adapter form Angenieux:

http://www.smsprod.com/products/lenses/angenieux4.html

It reduce the image size from 35mm film lenses to a video sensor. But this very expensive part have no prism, so the picture is upside down. Okay this is only for 2/3" sensors, but just have a look inside.

Jeff Donald · October 13th, 2004, 01:58 PM

EF-S lenses have the rear element set closer to the chip. This is why they only fit cameras modified to use them. The mirror is made slightly smaller and it swings back and up to avoid hitting the rear element. They have a new 10-22 mm lens coming to market soon. It will have the 35mm equivalent of 72-158 on the XL/1 series and 96-211 mm on the XL2.

Robert Mann Z. · October 13th, 2004, 02:38 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : EF-S lenses have the rear element set closer to the chip. -->>>

errr i have that backwards thanks for correcting me ...efs lenses can protrude further in

Stephen Birdsong · October 13th, 2004, 07:07 PM

Wayne.

forgive me, I somehow missed your first post.

I think you have a great idea.
That is definately a shift from what I was thinking, my only concern is if they turn it into a major marketing thing, ps technics will probably crack down and possibly stop production. I believe they have a patend, although I don't know how much their patend covers. Although there is movietube, which is already advertising their product. I don't really know.

If ps technics is charging $10k+, and sigma researches the market, that could seriously hurt our efforts, as they will most likely want to cut ps technics, but not by too much.

Stephen

October 13th, 2004, 01:58 PM	#163
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	EF-S lenses have the rear element set closer to the chip. This is why they only fit cameras modified to use them. The mirror is made slightly smaller and it swings back and up to avoid hitting the rear element. They have a new 10-22 mm lens coming to market soon. It will have the 35mm equivalent of 72-158 on the XL/1 series and 96-211 mm on the XL2. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 11th, 2004, 10:56 AM	#151
Stephen Birdsong Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 125	I don't think we should propose it as something they should consider adding to their catolog, or marketing to dv enthusiasts, we should approach it as requesting them to make a certain amount for our purposes and requesting a price quote. My opionion is that this is an alternative to going to a machine shop. A place you give your specs and they build what you need, because they have the tools and expertise. Sigma is in the same position as that, except they build lenses, that is what they do. We do not need them to do massive R&D. We give them the specs, they should know how to accomplish it without any R&D. We need way to attach it to our cameras, some sort of xl mount. We need a lens that will allow our cameras to capture a 36x24mm frame off of a gg, and a mount in front of that gg at the correct flange depth. To a lens maker, this may be a strange request, but certainly not difficult or prohibitively expensive. There are no moving elements, everything could be locked down. Xl mount could be a problem if it needs to be licensed. for the front element, I would vote c-mount or f-mount. Im not terribly interested in sigma lenses, but as you say, it may be a selling point for them. stephen

October 11th, 2004, 10:59 AM	#152
Stephen Birdsong Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 125	by the way, I've read in other threads where people have arranged this sort of deal with japanese lens manufactureres, this is why I am optomistic..

October 11th, 2004, 03:14 PM	#153
Stephen Birdsong Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 125	not 100% sure, but it seems if they will send you the relay lens, than all you need is to build the gg and mount in front of it. if you look at the pdf of the innards of the lens, you can probably deduce where the "relay" ends and the gg element part begins. If there are no more optics (besides gg), then yes, all you have to do is put a gg in front of it and get a mount. everyone check out the other thread, its starting to see some more life. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...5&pagenumber=3 stephen birdsong

October 11th, 2004, 04:29 PM	#154
Stephen Birdsong Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 125	I was ordering my gg from optosigma today, and I spoke with an engineer. They do custom manufacturing. Its as simple as that. He gave me lots of advice on the lens (alot of which I did not understand). And he said that I need to figure out exactly what I need and they would do it. that was easy. Of course, I did not get a price, that could be the catch. He spoke of it as if it were easy, and something he could do in half an hour. (design the lens). so, back over to the other thread where, hopefully, we can get this ball rolling and figure this out. stephen

October 12th, 2004, 05:01 AM	#155
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Mike, I'm not really biting into the debate, I just gave advice about the most economical and marketable solutions. If you go to a pricey manufacturer with a low volume market you will get very expensive product, like just for XL users (we are talking thousands of units to start to get economies of scale, hundreds maybe not). You might as well go to an engineering firm with a worked out design for a custom order. If you have high volume, with quality low priced manufacturer, then you can get lower price than going to an engineering firm with small order. My design suggestion allows an manufacturer to target hundreds of thousands of users. The price of adaptors is cents (for casing) to dollers (for mechanical lense control mechanisms) in this sort of volume. The price difference between 35mm and MF focus screen/condensor lenses (furthure relay can be normal size) to their respective manufacturers is going to be dollers as well. But this is only an idealistic suggestion, MF is not really needed for most people). You could specify only the most common lense mountsd (Nikon, Canon, etc). So if you pick the right company they can get the parts cheap, or manufacture them cheaper, but probably not in runs of less than thousands (hundred thousand is even cheaper). You probably could go to them with a XL1 system , with a backup universal system suggestion if they don't think the XL market is big enough to worry about for less than $5-10K a peice. Well that's my input, I'm not really interested in it for myself (though maybe a universal one). Just remember when the HD Canon models come out you'll want one for that too (so the best GG would be best to start with, I'm wondering about something simular to the Canon laser bright focusing screens which have 220 million microlenses) . Mike, have you thought of talking with people in the Alda/Agnus threads and Canon forum to gather interest. Like you, the people there have also been talking about ordering batches of custom adaptors in times past. The people there could probably input into a complete design that could be made at an engineering firm? Wish you luck. Thanks Wayne.

October 12th, 2004, 08:38 PM	#156
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	Okay, we need to start somewhere and I guess we need to decide where that is. Are we going to start looking around for someone capable of fabricating an adapter for a relay lens to attach to the XL1s? This seems to be the place to start for me--- at least I think it is.

October 13th, 2004, 05:05 AM	#157
Anders Floe Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Copenhagen Posts: 91	Do you think that the P+S relaylens has somekind of a freshnel lens built in?

October 13th, 2004, 09:52 AM	#158
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Just yesterday I was reading through the latest issue of "Outdoor Photographer" and ran across an ad for two new Sigma lenses. The interesting thing though is that they were designed specifically for small format digital SLRs! Isn't this _precisely_ the thing we have been needing? I'm not sure how large the chips in a DSLR are but if they are currently making lenses for the purpose of removing the magnification factor I think they could certainly work something up for 1/3" chips... This, if I understand the problem correctly, would give us 35mm lenses without the need for GG and loss of light.

October 13th, 2004, 10:10 AM	#159
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Shaw : The interesting thing though is that they were designed specifically for small format digital SLRs! -->>> canon makes these as well they are called "efs" lenses, they basically set the rear element back so its not so close to the chip, reality is i feel its more marketing then anything else, i have seen little difference using these types... as for lens petition its a good idea, i feel that there is a market for primes with real manual focus controls...with 3 generations of the xl mount out there it should pay off well, if a mini 35 can be made for 10gees by an upstart a tamaron or sigma should be able to build great lenses with there eyes closed... with all this talk about an open lens system for under 6 grand i still can't put a prime on my camera for under 10grand

October 13th, 2004, 10:13 AM	#160
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Found one of the lenses. Couldn't find the other oddly... The two new lenses are 18-55mm and 55-200mm giving good coverage of both wide angle and telephoto. Both will cost MSRP $319 USD (together). http://www.sigma-photo.com/Html/pages/18_50_EX_DC.htm

October 13th, 2004, 10:14 AM	#161
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	>> canon makes these as well they are called "efs" lenses, they basically set the rear element back so its not so close to the chip, reality is i feel its more marketing then anything else, i have seen little difference using these types...<< Really? That's too bad :(

October 13th, 2004, 01:09 PM	#162
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	P+S have no own lens. They use a 25mm high quality c-mount lens from Schneider Kreuznach. This lens is a very fast lens (under 1), so also 16mm filmmakers love this lens since years. Here in germany the lens cost round 900,- euro. Close behind the GG is a condenser lens. This is because the hotspot, but P+S use NO other lens. With the Schneider lens there is no vignetting in the image and it can focus on short distance. The distance between lens and GG is round 11cm (prisms + mirror = 10cm). If you wont a bright picture, but without DOF, you can remove the GG (but not the condenser). This way work a adapter form Angenieux: http://www.smsprod.com/products/lenses/angenieux4.html It reduce the image size from 35mm film lenses to a video sensor. But this very expensive part have no prism, so the picture is upside down. Okay this is only for 2/3" sensors, but just have a look inside.

October 13th, 2004, 02:38 PM	#164
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : EF-S lenses have the rear element set closer to the chip. -->>> errr i have that backwards thanks for correcting me ...efs lenses can protrude further in

October 13th, 2004, 07:07 PM	#165
Stephen Birdsong Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 125	Wayne. forgive me, I somehow missed your first post. I think you have a great idea. That is definately a shift from what I was thinking, my only concern is if they turn it into a major marketing thing, ps technics will probably crack down and possibly stop production. I believe they have a patend, although I don't know how much their patend covers. Although there is movietube, which is already advertising their product. I don't really know. If ps technics is charging $10k+, and sigma researches the market, that could seriously hurt our efforts, as they will most likely want to cut ps technics, but not by too much. Stephen