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Old August 25th, 2005, 12:48 AM   #286
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Well, I have no idea why they didn't show the working prototype if they had one, maybe the camera that you all saw was 8 bit. What I have experienced was 12 bit version of DRAKE and yes, as I said the pircture was very impressive. As I know they still used IBIS5A. Well, when I returned to my country, I called Marc if everything was going as scheduled (we agreed that I would recieve a working prototype by the end of August), and he explained that unfortunatelly they have problems with 12 bit version, it appeared that the sensor they use (I guess IBIS5A) had some internal problems and when recording 12 bit it sent out some vertical lines on the image destroing the image quality. Marc explained that they decided to find some company that would manufacture them a sensor with their own design. So he said that i would take at least 4 month to do that. Also manufacturer of sensor they currently use said that it will also take about half year to improve the error in the sensor. Please all consider that I am not a technician and I don't understand many technical details, but this is what I was explained. I really wish that there is a camera available to ship from August 2005, as in that report, but it is not, because if there was one I would be the first one to purchase, and I would recomend it to all of you, it really is the best camera available at this moment that we can afford (at least some of us).

So, if you will know any update please also let us know.

And all of you who are interested there is a Russian company that created a Digita Cinema Camera, that is based on 1' CMOS sensor, thus can use 35mm optic on PL mount, and the camera can produce 2400-1350 pixels picture with up to 150fps. It has a separate recording device. I talked to the manufacturers and the price of the camera is from 18 000 USD to 150 000 USD depending of configuration. I will be visiting the company within next week and I will let you know details if you are interested. They also promised to have some samples of what they shoot by the end of this week on the web page. www.ctt.ru . Oh, and don't try to reach them on phone numbers that you see on web page, bacause it is not the number they have in use, I had to ask my friends in moscow to find the company. I know the mobile but I can not give away on the forum, you can e-mail if you are interested and I will refer you to them.

And for 18000USD you get the HD version only.

Even thou I think the image resolution of this camera is better than DRAKE I like drake better because of its functions. Hope some day DRAKE will be available.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 01:18 AM   #287
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Yes, problem is you introduce a product and then find out customers want this and want that. We thought it curious Drake wanted 8 bits, I imagine customers said more (great 12bit mode on it).

There have been people in the forums that say they want minimal camera, even just viewfinder and couple of buttons, and that might be alright for them, but for everybody else they like the convenience and accuracy of a full set up. Look at film cameras nowadays, they have plenty of digital gear on them, and there is a reason for that.

A shame the ibis is playing up in 12 bits, but where they get there own sensor from this sounds curious? Truth is there are a number of sensors on the market, that ccd sensor that was suggested before on the technical thread looks like a good one with something like 90% QE and very good resolution and frame rate. FF doers a nice 4MP sensor that will do 2MP at 30fps, and own the custom sensor maker Smalcamera. Somebody mentioned a new Foveon sensor on the other thread. Altasens has new 1/3 inch sensor (just look at how well the HC1 is doing with their 1/3 inch). A number of options, of people with the tech to ask to make a good one for you. I wonder what it will be like?

Does anybody know of any cheap 720p+ capable camera (pref with memory buffer and pixel packing) usb/firewire/Gige for less than $400, even cameralink etc, would be tempted to have a go at it? Sensor chip prices have dropped a lot. There is no way the sumix ibis is worth the $1000.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 08:07 PM   #288
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That russian camera site looks interesting but if that camera is 18k usd for a hd-sdi camera head than your better off buying a sony or ikegami box camera for a similar price IMHO and have all that features and support.

Still have the problem of finding a way to record that hd-sdi signal - nothing cheap currently available except a big ole computer with pci-x
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Old August 26th, 2005, 12:03 AM   #289
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Keith

First of all DRAKE also costs 18000USD. The advantage of russian camera over sony and ikegami is that it is CMOS sensor, and since it is one 1' sensor you can use all of the 35mm optics on it and have full advantage of DOF of 35mm film, without any Micro35 adapter or something like that. Also CMOS sensors tend to record more film like pictures that 3 CCDs. Also this russian camera, is 4:4:4 uncompressed like drake. Well, yes you can buy well know brand, but what you get is actually lower quality. Well at least if you seek something that will shoot images close to film. I will have update on this camera withing next 10 days, because I am planning to visit the company soon and see the camera for myself.

It is very strainge that nobody from DRAKE team have replied to the post yet. Don't you think? and I have sent them e-mails and don't recieve answers.
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Old August 27th, 2005, 05:25 PM   #290
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Drake is a full solution not just a camera head. I was making reference to the Russian one (not drale) that seems to just be a hd-sdi camera head. Also if you open the pdf it actually says 2/3" not 1" so some uncertainty their, but it looks like a single cmos sensor solution for the same price as a full resolution 3 ccd. By 4:4:4 do you mean raw bayer or do you mean true 4:4:4 over dual link hd-sdi debayered on the camera or something similar to raw bayer over one channel of hd-sdi. I don't speak russian so its hard to figure out what they are talking about on their site.

I also don't want to start a ccd vs. cmos war so I will just say that such generalizations that cmos is more film like can easily be proven false or true depending on the sensors in questions. I can only say this because I've seen first hand how they work and what they output and understand that how the charge builds up, is held, converted, and output and understand loses at each step from an engineering standpoint. I'm not a movie maker, I'm an engineering student so it's part of my studies to understand that.
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Old August 28th, 2005, 03:39 AM   #291
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I am not technician. So I might not understand the technical process of the CMOS sensor and how it is different from CCD. All I know and can evaluate is the picture when I look at it. I have seen picutres from DRAKE and also some high speed cameras based on CMOS sensor and this is my judgment based on. CMOS has artistic look, maybe this is because it is single sensor and all the CCD cameras I've seen are 3CCDs and maybe, the prism that splits the beam makes it look more videolike, maybe single CCD camera will make a better picture I have no idea.

Well about this russian camera, I don't know wether it is bayer 4:4:4 or true dual link, I don't even know what is the difference, but if you explain it to me in brief I would appreciate and I will ask the russian guys. And what is drake, bayer or true?

The pdf on the web page is old I guess, because I discussed this with them and I know it for sure, it is 1" sensor, and you can use standart 35mm film lenses on it with PL mount.

This camera is also a solution, not just a camera head. Well of course DRAKE had amazing functions and that is why I like DRAKE so much, but this is also a camera with processor inside. It records on a recorder that is separate but it is a size of a book and not heavy at all, so you can hold it on you belt or whatever. This camera also has it's own software interface with 16 profiles for setting, and manual and automatic white balance. And the pictures you see there are old, they have ordered special cases for the camera, so it is going to look as normal camera, with it's unique design.

As I know this sensor was developed by this company in Taiwan, it is their own design, and the sensor they use in both cameras (HD and DC) are the same. They guy from the company claims that it has a quality as good as ARRI D20, well, we will see, I think they will have samples uploaded on the site on monday.

And Keith please explain in brief what are other technical specifications I have to check and ask, and I will and post what they tell me here. THX.
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Old August 28th, 2005, 04:17 AM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Wakeham
Just look at kinetta, the camera was all over the place and has recently fell silent and nobody really knows whats going on with that either. They were delayed for altasens and now we know altasens is in full production and that camera still isn't out.
My take on Kinetta, is that Jeff is more interested in perfecting his exact camera than coming to market and making money. To watch just the features he discusses publically on his mailing list, you can tell the amount of time and energy he is investing.. to make his ideal digital cinema camera, not to sell it, but to have it.. so I get the sense that time-to-market for him is irellevant.

Like i've said before.. wait for early 2006.. exciting times!
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Old August 28th, 2005, 08:23 AM   #293
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Levan

If the russian camera is true dual link 4:4:4 and it is a single sensor then it has to debayer on the camera in real time. (take the raw image from a sensor with a CFA and decode it back to 3 seperate colour channels) Their is another method I described earlier in another thread about how hd-sdi in 4:2:2 is actually 2 channels serialized and can be used to transport 1920x1080 bayer data over a single channel and ignore the other one.

Like I said I can't read russian so I am missing a whole lot of information that is listed their so I could have it all wrong.

So its hard for me to tell you what I would be looking for as I am a lamen of movie making and looks and stuff and more interested in the technical aspects. I would want to see the spectral response for the CFA on the sensor because this will completely determine how true your colours are. I'd also be very interested in if the sensor is truely global shutter and the exact dimensions of the photosensitive area. (1" optical 16 x 9 should be 14.2mm x 8mm, or 16.2mm diagonal, 2/3" is 11mm diagonal)

If it does debayer on the camera then I'd want to see the algorithim used to debayer it, and be very very critical on how the algorithim handles high contrast - poor algorithms will result in random colours at high contrast areas.

All I can say is see what it outputs and if you like it then great, if you don't then too bad.


Adam
Thanks for that little info on kinetta.
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Old August 28th, 2005, 01:35 PM   #294
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Levan,

When you were refering to the sensor being designed by a company in Taiwan, were you refering to the Drake or the Russian camera? If you are refering to the Drake having a similar sensor to the Arri d20, are you sure about that.....is'nt the drake 720p? The Arri outputs at 1080p with a 35mm sized sensor at I believe 12.5 megapixel (i think it's the same cmos chip that is in the Panavision Genesis cam that they are shooting the new Superman movie on). Is this a type of chip that they are planing on upgrading the Drake with? If so that would be amazing.
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Old August 28th, 2005, 03:06 PM   #295
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Keith, I didn't exactly understood your explanaitions but I will try to get answers anyways. So I will know if it is true or bayer 4:4:4. (and which is better? ). Oh, yes and by the way, what is the size of D20, or when we refer to say the "sensor with the size of 35mm film", what does it mean? is it 1" or more? And the global shutter thing, why is it so important? Just to know.

Omar, I was refering to Russian camera. I didn't mean that they use the same chip as in Arri D20, I said that the developer of the camera told me over the phone (and he had a very definitive voice tember) that their camera does have the same quality as the ARRI D20. It was just comparison from his side, and he stated it without any proof yet, I haven't seen the pictures from the camera yet, but he was so sure when he was saying this that I kind of believe him. well, we will see. No DRAKE I think is in search for a sensor manufacturer at this moment, trying to develop the sensor of their own design. I don't know how far they went on it yet, because they don't reply to my e-mails. I hope they are doing fine.
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Old August 28th, 2005, 03:40 PM   #296
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Levan, thank you for the clarification....I can't wait to hear and see what you find out on the russian camera. Sounds very exciting.

thanks,
Omar
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Old August 28th, 2005, 06:47 PM   #297
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35mm film frame size is 22mm x 18.5mm I think somewhere around that and It depends on if it is regular 35mm or super35. 1" optical is about a 1.6x factor so a 50mm lense will be close to an 80mm on a true 35mm camera.
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Old August 29th, 2005, 02:35 PM   #298
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ARRI D20 uses a custom sensor from FillFactory (now Cypress)
Drake uses Ibis5A (FillFactory)
Panavision has bought some years ago a sensor manufacturer, so they are supposed to make their own sensors.
Dalsa also has its own D-Cinema camera using its own sensor/s.

CMOS and CCD look almost the same.Forget about saying CMOS is more "organic".
The infamous "video look" has nothing to be with that.It is related to the after sensor image processing (border enhancements and some other several things)
A key factor for "film like" quality is called "dynamic range".
Has anyone looked at the images from DVX100 "CCD" miniDV camera from Reel-Stream?
If don't please do it now.
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Old August 30th, 2005, 12:01 AM   #299
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JUAN,

Yes, I keep myself updated about Reel-Stream. Well, yes whatever they did to DVX100 it has a much better and realy impressive dynamic range, but if you watch close the commercial by Obin that is in the gallery on their site, you can see that it is not what you expect from film. Now download the commercial, it is about some flowers or something, well, it starts with the garden and a small fountain. When there is no movement in the picture the quality seems remarkable, but the shots of humen in the picture, where the man is sitting at the computer and the last shot, when they are togather sitting in the garden, is so video like. I think that film look is not just dynamic range, it is combination of it with DOF, motion blur etc. I don't know, maybe it is because of the beamsplitter, that splits color information in RGB for each sensor, I don't know, what causes it to look like move videolike that CMOS. Look at any camera with CMOS, even those that are not aimed to be cinema cameras, they make more organic output. For example look at footage of CineSpeedCam, it is designed for slow motion captures, it has speed up to 10000fps, it record to RAM, you can not use this camera for cinema production, because it is limited in recording time to several seconds, but anyways, if you download some samples shot with this camera, and evaluate it in terms of film look, you will understand. On NAB this year I say, CineSpeedCAM and also another high speed camera (don't remember the company) both on CMOS sensors, and both were great. DRAKE is also great, and I think it is because of CMOS.

Keith, I talked to the camera people in russia. They told me that it is true 4:4:4, but there is a recorder at this moment that supports only 4:2:2, he told me that I don't need more, but If I insist on 4:4:4 they can make one like that. I don't know about 4:4:4 and 4:2:2, I think for distinguishing by human eye there is no difference between this two, but how about color grading?! Also, It is originally Global shutter, but he told me they can make rolling shutter if needed. What is the difference and advantages of each?

Well, that's about it at this moment, I think I will have some frame grabs on my mail today and I will update to my web page, so you can see.
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Old August 30th, 2005, 01:12 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levan Bakhia
...but the shots of humen in the picture, where the man is sitting at the computer and the last shot, when they are togather sitting in the garden, is so video like.
Also that woman's face looks like hardened clay.
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