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Old December 13th, 2004, 11:57 AM   #16
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<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Hart :
However as we see with Linux, ideas will begin to be with-held. Whilst it might irritate that the collective intellectual property from this site has been harvested, I can't myself cry foul as the basis behind these developments is a patented reverse projection method many have attempted to emulate.
-->>>

Given the length of time the project has been ongoing and the fact that no one yet has come up with a workable moving GG solution that can be replicated I can certainly appreciate why someone would patent their efforts. Like Win vs. Linux vs. Mac, I just want something that works. If it's free and open source, so much the better. If not, give me a reasonable price. I've got no-budget-film-school-movies to make. :-)

I think the door has been wide open for someone to get tenacious and see this project to it's end for quite some time now - and make some money too. I, having attempted a moving GG project and given up, can certainly appreciate the level of skill and craftsmanship required and give a big salute to everyone trying.

I'm hopeful that several people will continue and complete "winners" including a medium format solution. Many are ready to pay for a good moving GG device, or kit, or plans or parts. Just not $10,000 :-)
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Old December 13th, 2004, 12:54 PM   #17
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So much for email ;-)
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Old December 13th, 2004, 12:59 PM   #18
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James,

Thank you for cooling somewhat the "heat".
You were right. I did "show off" with the results of my work.
I am sorry for hurting feelings here. I really am!
My stupid pride.
I should have said nothing at all. I was too excited to
get the results I got.
That's all.

I did not receive any knowledge about "how to make it" from
this forum.
Not even the slightest clue. Believe me. Even if you do not (now),
some day when this one will be on the market, you and anyone else, could look back to all ideas vehiculated and
see if this one was ever sugested. Even so (I did not
follow threads) from a "sugestion" to the real thing is
a loooooooooooooooong way of #$@&* and sweat.

You are absolutely right. I did "parachuted" in this forum and
somehow raised the bar. But I never said don't try it or
don't do it. All I said was: here is a current level, do it better.
That's all.

About shearing knowledge.

I will not go in depth about my conceptions about knowledge and friendship.
I will only say this: friends are frinds as long as there is
nothing to fight for and all they have to share is a "good time". Trow something in between (girl, money, whatever)
and see for yourself.

You say P+S have a patent on the movement.
Could you please supply the link to that patent???

All I found was an abandoned application (here in Canada) for the adapter. That's all. See it here:

http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/details?patent_number=2336197&language=EN

http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/details2?patent_number=2336197

Even if they have a patent on the movement(as they made it), that does
not mean in any way that moving the GG in a different manners does not qualify for a patent. So, is all yours (ours)

About "giving tech details" :

Even if one, opens the currnet version of P+S , one needs
to be able to reproduce it (manufacturing cost, tooling, etc)
This is a big (the least to say) task.

Buy a camcorder. Is $200 us. Or a scanner ($20)
Take a screwdriver.
You have all the parts on your table. You can take measurements, and all that. Can you get anywhere?.....
Can you make more of those? Is it worth one's time?

An info will ONLY have value for someone who CAN make something
out of it.

It is my belief that without a miniature machine shop, this
task can not be accomplished with all the info on the table.

I will refrain from comments from now on.
Sorry to "make waves" here.

All the best to all members.


PS
If anyone is interested to receive updates on the matter,
please email me. I will have fottage soon on line.
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Old December 13th, 2004, 01:48 PM   #19
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Dan,
I'm not trying to run you off. I've only tried to relay my interpretation of the etiquette of this forum.

I new way of moving a GG is very interesting. Just as you say #$@&* and sweat. This forum goes way back documenting that #$@&* and sweat and wasted money on failed attempts. And then for us guys sitting at our mini-lathes and mill-converted cnc all night, working on a design that the direction of the forum is heading, to findout that someone has a better design but doesn't care to share his findings, is somewhat personally disturbing. And then ask for suggestions on top of that.

I hope you see where I'm coming from, and I hope you understand that my personal opionions do not reflect the thoughts of the people on this board. It was just me talking.

So now that it's documented within this thread, it will be very clear that this is a 'proprietary' design that is looking for suggestions from people that are familiar with the concept. I'm sure there are many people that would like to see your progress and comment on it as its being developed, including myself.

Welcome to the forum.

james
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Old December 13th, 2004, 06:24 PM   #20
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James,

Once again, my apologies. I did not expect improvements from the list.
That was pure sarcasm, and I am an A$$$....

(How can one improve something that is not known or understood?)
I am sorry.

Is just that I did not think it can be done any better (smaller, lighter weight, less power consumption, more precise, etc)
(but then again, how many times before did I not just say THAT, only to change IT ALL h latter?) (already have something to add goddamnit)

All I can say is that I will do the best I can to make it AFFORDABLE for all.
(and REASONABLE) so nobody will bother with "homemades" for not being worth the time.

Courtesy to one of the members (Joel from big smiles), you can see a short clip of the
complete version of this adapter and one shot using it (until I sort it out how to post more clips on line on my site) here:

http://www.bigsmile.com/video/

Keep in touch
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Old December 14th, 2004, 08:22 AM   #21
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Dan.

Don't feel compelled to go away. Everyone here represents the big "D" not democracy but diversity. And don't feel bad about showing us your project. We are here to learn and to share.

Every now and then a toe or two will catch in a crack in the pavement but in the bigger scheme of things, it is only a momentary stumble. Good luck in your endeavour.

By the way, have you thought of milling white nylon or nolathane for that gg frame?
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Old December 14th, 2004, 09:28 AM   #22
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Thanks Bob,
I do not feel bad for showing my work, I feel bad for "showing off".
I seem to master avoiding to learn from past mistakes. We all know who
does that!!!! ...............
"Pride" is one of the seven. I know I have it, and that's why I am taking drastic measures. Hopefully I will get better..... but when?.....
....................................................................................................
If the frame is black, transparent or white plastic (nylon or something else)
is allready philosophy. Which one will block light, or let it go or bounce it back....
Arguments for all - plenty. Who's to say which one?
Tried all three versions, did not see any changes (I am sure there are)
Setlled for black for that's what's around GG in all SLR's.
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Old December 14th, 2004, 10:44 AM   #23
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Dan.

My mistake. There is possibly black nylon available too. I was thinking of the noise/vibration factor associated with a metal frame. With nolathane can come cold-casting partially formed blanks, ease of milling and much less tool wear.

At the oscillation frequencies you are using, I wondered if you might get flexing on the corners and chipping wear on the edge of the groundglass unless you bond the groundglass into the frame.
Nylon should be more benign to the glass if it comes loose in the frame but of course with nylon, it might also be more inclined to come loose.

I'm using polypropolene for my diskmotor mount plate for reason it is less acoustically live than metal or a harder plastic. Although my version is made of PVC water and sewer pipe, I have not had to acoustically insulate the case with that arrangement.

I experienced repeated fractures of multistranded wire next to fresh soldered joints to the motor within a half-hour of testing when running an out-of-balance disk at 3000rpm approx. You may need to encapsulate the motor wires or peg them to the frame close to the motor for reliability.
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Old December 14th, 2004, 11:36 AM   #24
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Bob,
We are slipering here on the tech side.
I do not have bending, chipping on the corners (not even the remote possibility of getting it/them)
Sorry but that's about all I have the liberty to discuss.
But a fair question I am willing to ask.
What would you pay for this movement AS IS?
I hope to get a fair answer (if your price is fair or no to me, that's a different story)
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Old December 14th, 2004, 12:55 PM   #25
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Hey Dan saw the video. Looks nice and compact! I was looking at the back of the adapter and noticed the size of the lens opening for the video camera is equally small. Have you had a chance to see if your adapter will work with pro-sumer cameras? I ask because they have larger lenses and different minimum focal lengths. So does it work with:

DVX100?
PD150/PD170?
GL2?
Sony HDV?
etc?

Also does your adapter rotate the image upright again before going to tape?
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Old December 14th, 2004, 01:48 PM   #26
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How about posting a sample video using the device?
A high bit rate video would be the test.
Low bit rate hides a lot.

-Les
<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Diaconu : Thanks Bob,
I do not feel bad for showing my work, I feel bad for "showing off".
I seem to master avoiding to learn from past mistakes. We all know who
does that!!!! ...............
"Pride" is one of the seven. I know I have it, and that's why I am taking drastic measures. Hopefully I will get better..... but when?.....
....................................................................................................
If the frame is black, transparent or white plastic (nylon or something else)
is allready philosophy. Which one will block light, or let it go or bounce it back....
Arguments for all - plenty. Who's to say which one?
Tried all three versions, did not see any changes (I am sure there are)
Setlled for black for that's what's around GG in all SLR's. -->>>
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Old December 14th, 2004, 02:04 PM   #27
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Never interested to make it work for those.
No need to.
All one needs is the best 3 ccd and a gadget for the "look".
(In the DV world)
All the features found on those models are "one satifyes for all"
The shot at the end of the clip is one of many.
None of the PD's or XL's can deliver that by themsleves.
(so why bother? Check the resolution on the chips (XL1 vs GS200)
and see for yourself.
For sound (on Panasonic GS200), there is an aux mic input.
Minijack to XLR (for boom mic work) Bingo!
What else one needs????..................................

I had an L1 (11-12 years ago) and loved every moment shooting with it.
Now, I know a bit better.

However, this one I am working on is 4 Sony fx1 (but will work on any
having a 72mm filter on the lens, like PD and such...)

No, I am not interested in roating the image.
(did that allready, what a pain...)

Why add cost, weight,
size to unis and high price to consummer when you can use a flip monitor 4 framing and flip the footage it in post on-the-fly?
If there are seconders, I am right.
If no, I am the only one to go that route.
OK with me anyway.
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Old December 14th, 2004, 04:18 PM   #28
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Up-dates:

http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/682555803

more to come.
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Old December 15th, 2004, 02:10 AM   #29
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Dan-
Well Im glad to see that you built a adapter that accepts 72mm lens mounts even though you believe your GS200 is the same in quality to a progressive scan camera like the DVX100. For me the look is totally different and more in the spirit of a 35mm adapter. No matter. It looks like we dont have to agree because it will fit the DVX anyways. Very nice! So I've been meaning to ask you since you decided to electronically vibrate the GG rather than oscillate it have you noticed any problems with dust and dirt showing up on the GG. Seeing that any dust, etc riding on GG that is vibrating in very tiny movements I would think it would be more likely to show up because its basically sitting in the same general area of the frame. I hope that made sense. Basically it fairly easy to make the grain disappear due to contrast reasons but a piece of dust or hair is more likely to show up if its not moving in a large path. Larger the path the less time it has to expose its image on the CCD. This is based on the basic laws of how light works to create a image on film or a CCD but perhaps isnt a issue. I noticed you dont have a dust guard protecting to GG so have you tested for this? I ask because if it works flawlessly I would much rather switch to your design for my own adapter and just vibrate the GG. The oscillating movement is just too much of a pain in the butt.

Few more questions:
USB port? For what?

Did you make two different adapters. It seems so by your pictures? Whats the difference?
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Old December 15th, 2004, 02:11 AM   #30
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Dan-
Well Im glad to see that you built a adapter that accepts 72mm lens mounts even though you believe your GS200 is the same in quality to a progressive scan camera like the DVX100. For me the look is totally different and more in the spirit of a 35mm adapter. No matter. It looks like we dont have to agree because it will fit the DVX. Very nice! So I've been meaning to ask you since you decided to electronically vibrate the GG rather than oscillate it have you noticed any problems with dust and dirt showing up on the GG. Seeing that any dust, etc riding on GG that is vibrating in very tiny movements I would think it would be more likely to show up because its basically sitting in the same general area of the frame. I hope that made sense. Basically it fairly easy to make the grain disappear due to contrast reasons but a piece of dust or hair is more likely to show up if its not moving in a large path. Larger the path the less time it has to expose its image on the CCD. This is based on the basic laws of how light works to create a image on film or a CCD but perhaps isnt a issue. I noticed you dont have a dust guard protecting to GG so have you tested for this? I ask because if it works flawlessly I would much rather switch to your design for my own adapter and just vibrate the GG. The oscillating movement is just too much of a pain in the butt.

Few more questions:
USB port? For what?

Did you make two different adapters. It seems so by your pictures? Whats the difference?
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