New moving ground glass mechanism at DVinfo.net

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Old December 10th, 2004, 04:35 PM   #1
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Possible alternative?

Moderator note: Dan, I've started a new thread for your mechanism in our Alternative Imaging Methods forum which seems to be the most appropriate place. -Boyd
--------------

Hi Cris,
I just do not know where to post the following pic

http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/941356005

to let the interested people know of an alternative for "home made"
adapter.
Cheers,
Dan Diaconu.
setarcos@shaw.ca
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Old December 11th, 2004, 01:44 AM   #2
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Hey Dan I looked closely at your pic but wasnt sure what kind of movement you are creating with your mechanism. Rotating, vibrating or oscillating? Whats the range of movement?
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Old December 11th, 2004, 05:51 AM   #3
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Dan

Concentric bearings and keyed eccentric median ring?? How are you managing wear debris/lube vapors settling on the groundglass? Does the deep frame with angled sides take care of that?
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Old December 11th, 2004, 10:06 AM   #4
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Gents,
Thanks for your interest. (and thank you for the new thread :-)

The movement of the GG is of a circular uniform motion:
the whole GG describes a circle (very small 0.2-0.6mm)

At 20-60 R/sec and the small ammount of movement is perceived as "shaking" or "vibrating" as of a linear vibrator.

The rotation is done on a horizontal plane ONLY. There is no
vertical movement whatsoever.
(Otherwise it would be IN and OUT of the focal plane)

There is no wear debris/lube vapors settling on the groundglass. As near as I can figure it out it will work
from -10 (maybe -15?) deg C to +40- 50? without any changes is performance. I did not do a temp test but I am confident 90% that the perfrmance is not affected by temp.

The "deep frame with angled sides" is only to prevent any
reflection of light ending on the GG. It resebles a MB (with the same purpose)

As for the movement, I can not give details at this time (being subject to a patent application)

However, I can assure you that if anyone will be on the market with a lesser quality and a higher price than what
our world film community desrves, I will be there to make sure
ANYONE who can afford to buy an HD Sony (or whatever brand of prosummer HD) will access CONFORTABLY one of this adapters.
My aim is to open the "inner circle" to many.

I will post some footage before the week end and I will be happy to receive your comments and answer further questions.

PS. IMHO, the technical chalange of manufacturing this
units lays beyond average homebuilder. I have a precision miniature lathe and milling machine from SHERLINE and six years of using them (must have learned something......)

http://www.sherline.com/tip35.htm

I have been working on this project since August/2004 and this is the 23 version of the "shaker"
(Took me a while to get here...)
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Old December 11th, 2004, 12:25 PM   #5
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Good work. I take it what you mean by "circular uniform motion" is oscillating motion. I was thinking about the speed of such system and figured out the fastest you would need to make it oscillate would be 1 rotation per shutter speed. In other words if you shoot no faster than 1/1000 then it doesnt help to rotate the GG faster than 1 rotation per 1/1000 of a second. I mention it because noise is a issue with these movements. Will we be able to use a on camera mic with your design? If not I might recomend that you have a variable speed motor and you can dial in various speeds like 1/1000 all the way down to the common 1/48th to conserve power and make on camera mics possible. Just a random thought. Good luck on your project. Thank you for all your hard work.
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Old December 11th, 2004, 02:26 PM   #6
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Thank you for your input.
From what I observed, the slower the movement the better the bled of the grain into itself.
If one of two is fast motion (shutter spped or GG movement)
the end result is the same (you start seing the grain)
(never thought one would shoot higher than 1/60 like 1/1000
for that is the closest to our beloved 1/48...... and not use ND's)
The closer to matching speeds (hence 60r/s for 1/60s shutter speed) the better the blend.
If a speed of something in between matching is dialed (yes the speed is variable) then you would get a "fliker like" effect
very pleasing (to my taste) and much closer in "suggesting"
film transfer than 24P (way................ nicer)
Noise is allmost 0 to ear from 1 ft from the open mechanism.
When mounted in, with propper sound dumpening I guess it will be good enough for "on camera" mic.
Thanks and look for a new post.
I will load some pics and clips soon.
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Old December 12th, 2004, 03:14 PM   #7
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The reason why some would choose to shoot faster than 1/48th or 1/60th is the same reasons you use a tighter shutter angle in film (sharp effect like, Gladiator, some music videos and action scenes). It was somewhat over used a few years ago but it would be great still be allowed to pull this trick out of bag. In other words your variable motor will have to be fast enough for at least 1/500 shutter speeds. But thats just icing on the cake.

That effect of having a slow moving GG sounds interesting. Like you I've had dozens of generations of adapter designs. One worked on the idea of not moving the GG fast enough so you tried to make it disappear. Instead it only moved slightly between video frames and then stopped when the next frame was captured. This was happening 30 times a sec. In other words each frame had a different grain static structure than the previous so when put it motion it would give a very believable film look and create a unique softness to the image. The problem with such a system though is you have to sync it with the camera thru the cameras own pulse signal it gives out but I didnt want to get involved with the electronics since its not my expertise.

Anyways great design. Im glad to see you used a motion picture film gate rather than a still film gate because then we can use both lenses. Keep us updated.
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Old December 12th, 2004, 05:54 PM   #8
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Is it just me or is this guy saying we're all wasting our time and anything we've done or do will never amount to something that will work?

Isn't this the place where everyone has been sharing ideas and accomplishments which will allow everyone to move along together? The same place that probably put him on his quest?

And he want's us to give him more ideas?
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Old December 12th, 2004, 06:51 PM   #9
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James-
Are you talking about me or Dan? If it was something I said please email me so I can better explain myself because thoughs are not my intentions at all. Email is better because I'd rather not dirty up this thread with this or anything else off subject. If its Dan then all I can say is I didnt get that impression. He seems like he truely knows what hes doing and is offering yet another option for us to consider. I good one at that. Now back to the thread.
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Old December 12th, 2004, 08:30 PM   #10
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Good point Brett,

Indeed for fast motion, sometimes a high speed (or small shutter ) is used to "freze" the motion and give it a strobe like
look. I (mentaly) did not consider it as an option based on my
(old fasshioned) interpretation of fast movement (too fast to
be caught on film, hence blured....) But than again, is used
and sometimes looks nice (although, most time cryes for attention to the effect itself and the story (if there ever was one) and the "magic" goes bye-bye.

However, most times with a small shutter used comes
slo-mo and that's over 70-90 fps, which can not be
(yet) achieved in video, so what's the point? Only to "slow it down" in post?

Fast shutter speed means fast action. When something
happens that fast that requires 1/500 and 1/1000 then who's got the time to "pull focus" (in video).

In a fast scene, hardly
anyone will look for the "look" (I might be wrong though)

If one decides to shoot 1/500 or 1/1000 in video, it would require a very fast movement (with all the noise and mechanical shake that comes with it to loose the grain of GG. Is it worth it? Just for the look?

Not to me.
I am happy with it as is.(As a matter of fact, one of the
prefious models was going up to very fast speed (possibly
1/500 but was obviously much noisier)
As you know, if there is enough demand for "whatever",
someone will get out and do it. The question is :would it be enough demand for that hi speed alone? Anyone?

James, I am sorry if you interpreted my post that way.
I willl keep it short here for the other members.
I have gained nothing new in terms of knowlege from the discutions related to any replicas of this video adapter.
The only thing was the strugle, ambition, creativity and bitternes of the high price of P+S (to which I subscribe)
The only thing I looked for was "to what extreme and creative solutions some people would go to get the look.

That is true passion!

I respect it and I love it.

Please do not waste your energy on hate. Please!
You might be happy one day soon to have an alternative
(movement) and build your system around it 4 a lot less.
Ta-Daaaa....
I choose to take your post as one of the most sincere
compliments I have received lately. Thank you and no
hard feelings.

http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/868859207

http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/758330850
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Old December 12th, 2004, 08:39 PM   #11
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...
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Old December 12th, 2004, 08:48 PM   #12
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Good point Brett,

Indeed for fast motion, sometimes a high speed (or small shutter ) is used to "freze" the motion and give it a strobe like
look. I (mentaly) did not consider it as an option based on my
(old fasshioned) interpretation of fast movement (too fast to
be caught on film, hence blured....) But than again, is used
and sometimes looks nice (although, most time cryes for attention to the effect itself and the story (if there ever was one) and the "magic" goes bye-bye.

However, most times with a small shutter comes
slo-mo and that's over 70-90 fps, which can not be
(yet) achieved in video, so what's the point? Only to "slow it down" in post?

Fast shutter speed means fast action. When something
happens that fast that requires 1/500 and 1/1000 then the look would be less noticeable (I would guess)

In a fast scene, hardly
anyone will look for the "look"
(I might be wrong though)

If one decides to shoot 1/500 or 1/1000 in video, it would require a very fast movement (with all the noise and mechanical shake that comes with it to loose the grain of GG. Is it worth it? Just for the look? How many would
be willing to pay for the extra feature? How much?

I am happy with this one as is.
(As a matter of fact, one of the
prefious models was going up to very fast speed (possibly
up to 1/500 but was obviously much noisier and heavier)

As you know, if there is enough demand for "whatever",
someone will get out and do it. The question is :would it be enough demand for that hi speed alone? Anyone?

James, I am sorry if you interpreted my post that way.

(I will try & keep it short here for the other members)
I have gained nothing new in terms of knowlege from the discutions related to any replicas of this video adapter.
The only thing was the strugle, ambition, creativity and bitternes of the high price of P+S (to which I subscribe)
The only thing I looked for was "to what extreme and creative solutions with limited machining capabilities"
some people would go to get the look.

That is TRUE passion!

I respect it and I love it.!!!!!

Please do not waste your energy on hate. Please!
You might be happy one day soon to have an alternative
(movement) and build your system around it 4 a lot less.
Ta-Daaaa....
I choose to take your post as one of the most sincere
compliments I have received lately. Thank you and please, no hard feelings.

http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/868859207

http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/758330850
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Old December 13th, 2004, 01:19 AM   #13
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James... James...
I don't understand. Can you please explain?

<<<-- Originally posted by James Hurd : Is it just me or is this guy saying we're all wasting our time and anything we've done or do will never amount to something that will work?

Isn't this the place where everyone has been sharing ideas and accomplishments which will allow everyone to move along together? The same place that probably put him on his quest?

And he want's us to give him more ideas? -->>>
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Old December 13th, 2004, 09:34 AM   #14
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Sorry guys but I guess it was just me. My feeling is that if he would how his designed worked, I would not have taken it that way. If he does have a patent pending AND prior documentation, he wouldn't have any risk of someone trying to rip it off to go and sell it (even though ps already has a patent on a moving gg). He should know this already holding several patents (according to his website.) But by holding his cards and asking us what we're holding kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

I won't go into the fact that he parachuted in here and said look what I've got, and don't try it because I'm a pro with 7 years experience...

We all need motivation. The comradery that we see and read throughout this board. I'll help you! You help me!

And many people here are not able to buy an HDV Prosumer camera. They've got everything from 3ccd cameras to 1ccd handycams. So for you average home builders, your're outta luck!

Maybe it's just the engineer in me... Either we're all on the same team or we're not.

Dan, are any of your inventions on the market today? Do you think that you're not covered by explaining your design more indepth? What will be your path to market or will you just be selling to the "The average Home Builder"? What do you think it will sell for? Should everyone stop working on their adapters and wait for your silver bullet?

I'll get off of my soap box now. (by the way, I've found the cure for cancer, but I can only show you a piece of the formula. Maybe I'll sell it to you some day ;) )
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Old December 13th, 2004, 11:37 AM   #15
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The beauty about this whole AGUS/ALDU open source thing has been the crossfeed of ideas and information without hindrance.

However as we see with Linux, ideas will begin to be with-held. Whilst it might irritate that the collective intellectual property from this site has been harvested, I can't myself cry foul as the basis behind these developments is a patented reverse projection method many have attempted to emulate.

P+S Technik have had the good grace to leave me alone for which I am appreciative. They could have been quite vengeful and injuncted the entire construction and development effort out of existence by now, but they have not gone there.

I would hope that by reading the collective published efforts, their own R&D people may have found some fresh ideas to try which can only benefit the industry generally, not harm it.

With the AGUS/ALDU appliances, many can be thrown together quite crudely and still yield a result in that 95% perfection region. My specimen for example can be 5mm or nearly 1/4" out and still work because adjustments are built in and if worst comes to worst, plastic can be bent.

Dan's appliance on the surface appears to be a viable alternative to the orbital arrangements which are being published here. Despite its sophistication it will remain only as effective as the other components of the arrangement allow it to be.

His appliance might spawn a viable commercial enterprise which becomes an employer of a few people who have fallen victim to the export enhancement program on jobs. Keeping a unique idea close to the chest before release makes good business sense. After release, it will then remain secret no longer than it takes for the first screwdriver to touch it or the service manual to be read.
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