Best format to shoot with FX1/mini35 (i.e. 60i) at DVinfo.net

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Old November 10th, 2005, 10:15 PM   #1
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Best format to shoot with FX1/mini35 (i.e. 60i)

What is the best way to emulate the imfamous filmlook with an FX-1/mini35 adapter combo?

Is it better to shoot 60i and then convert down to 24p in post?

I'm shooting a music video in two weeks with this configuration, and want to know the best combination would be.

Thanks guys.
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Old November 11th, 2005, 12:49 PM   #2
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Hey, Jeff. Welcome to the DVinfo forums! There's probably a few schools of thought on this so I'll just throw in my 2 cents worth.
You could do the conversion with a program like DVfilmmaker. Magic Bullet, etc, and get fairly good results.
Personally, I bought a camera that shoots 24p so I could capture the results I wanted at the source rather than going back and having to heavily process/render in post. I'm not a huge advocate of doing things in post that could have been done in the field/in-camera in the first place. Once again, just my 2 cents.
As far as the film look goes, think of other things you can do as well as the "look" is way more than DOF and 24p.
Pay extremely careful attention to lighting, composition, color palette, wardrobe, etc.
These things will help make your production more "filmlike" than a 24p shot production that had none of the aforementioned things working for it.
I've seen stuff shot on 35mm that looked absolutely horrible because of bad lighting and composition.
I'd also think about the look you want then then go watch some music videos that emulate that look. Palm Pictures has released many great music video compilations from leading directors over the last few years.
Hope this helps.
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Old November 14th, 2005, 07:56 PM   #3
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have u tried 25p?

Obviously you are using the sony HDV camera, i know, because i own one too, that 24p is imposible to get in the camera... so i took my camera and started to play with different frame rates, pal, ntsc, deinterlacing and all that stuff.

Ive tried the cineframe24 but we all know it is quite strobing, then i did a test using PAL cineframe25 at 50 shutter speed... I found it looked very good after conforming the 25p to 24p in FINAL CUT PRO, and i edited that project as a PAL sequence at 24, the in after effects, i just added the pulldown.. what i got? a very film like motion. The bad thing is that the sound made a speed and pitch change. Baaaad! but wait.. there's a solution...

When you record at 25p, your playblack must be 104% faster!!!! Then when you conform to 24p... the 96% speed change will convert the audio from 104% to 100%...
Shoot this way and you'll find that Pal has more colors and definition than NTSC and people won't be able to recognize that it is "video" material, because you used a 180 degrees shutter just like film cameras do.
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Old November 20th, 2005, 11:32 PM   #4
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No CF25

He owns an FX1. Which doesn't support CF25, unfortunetly.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 11:15 AM   #5
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Jeff, bottom line is this:

- Use Magic Bullet Suite to convert to 24p. DVXUser.com did a comparison and Magic Bullet Suite came out better than DVFilmmaker did, though those results were decent.

- Light well.

- Record sound well, not too quiet, not too loud.

- Set proper exposure and iris and keep things consistent, don't go from bright to dark in the same scene sequence.

- Use good lenses with your Mini35, don't go too cheap. Rent even.

- Film in 1080i, everything else (Cineframe) will mess with your image.

- Use really good tripod/dolly/crane systems according to your shots. Stuttery pans don't scream "Professional".

- Use that DOF to the best of its potential, you've spent the big bucks on that Mini35, whether to own or rent, use it well.

Well, unless I've missed something, you should be good to go!
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Old November 25th, 2005, 05:56 PM   #6
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Does anyone know why Magic Bullet is so slow??

Ive tryed to use magic bullet, but i guess my computer is not fast enough... Im considering updating my processor which is right now at 466 MHz... Or it is the RAM? Im using 640 RAM...

If i update to a 1.62 GHZ proccessor and increment my RAM, will I be running Magic Bullet Faster???? Or is it a natively slow application?
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Old February 4th, 2006, 05:54 PM   #7
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If you're going to edit HD it will require a minimum of at least 2GB of RAM. I had to upgrade my PC to 2GB and I might even need to get 4GB just to emulate SMOOTH playback.

God I can't wait till HD-DVD is available...

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Old February 4th, 2006, 07:33 PM   #8
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I shoot 50i and use a combination of the Nattress deinterlace plug ins and the re:vision fields kit. [on a mini35]

WHy the fuss about the 24 frame rate? I put media to DVD - 25 is fine. I put it to broadcast [PAL] - 25 is *better*. If you want a film output - do it at 25. You'd be surprised the speed that the commercial cinemas play films at - 24 runs the shows a little "long" - wasting valuable commercial time. They usually speed the projector to *at least* 25, adjusting the sound pitch down, because that way there is room for another commercial or two at the start. [Broadcasters do the same thing].

If there was sopme *special* need for 24 frame playback, then it would be a big issue. There isn't really a need and there is no great issue - except the idea that it's a magic number [requiring all sorts of drop frame processing in some post workflows] that gives a "real" "film look".

25i, deinterlaced and post produced frame for frame is fine - just like 24p with a 24 fame workflow is fine. The real issue in my experience is dynamic range on video - that's the missing feature of the "film look".

-j
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Old February 9th, 2006, 09:25 AM   #9
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rendering time, rendering time, rendering time...

If you want 24p the best way to get it is to shoot it. Unfortunately with the FX1 you don't have that option so it looks like you're shooting 60i and deinterlacing in post, or applying some other 24p effect. This isn't the end of the world, but I would definitely avoid the cine modes of the Sony. I do however recall reading a thread somewhere where one was able to extract 24 frames from the sony cine mode shot footage. Sorry I don't recall where this was.. likely this site somewhere. It was some star wars fight scene footage where they were shooting 35mm film and then the dude put his behind the scenes footage through post to match the film stuff. Was cool.

Another advantage of shooting 24p or 25p is that fact that you will save on rendering times because you're rending 20% less footage.. not to mention the time you save not having to go through Magic Bullet, etc.. worse is this is HD footage and the pain I'm talking about is with SD so... . .
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Old February 17th, 2006, 08:08 PM   #10
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Sony has even started selling a progresive scan version of there HDW-750
profesional HDCAM camcorder that records at 25p. Unfortunately were
probably not going to see wide spread 25p playback compatibility (here in
the U.S.) in consumer HD televisions and no support for broadcasting 25p
productions. Since were all considered rich by the Japanese they are not
going to sell a budget progresive scan 24p hdcam camcorders to the U.S.
anytime soon. So were back to using a 35mm german image coverters
with small image chip Japanese prosumer camcorders in PAL mode. (trying
to stay on topic)
The best hope for distribution would be quality upconverting DVD players that can upconvert 576p to 720p and playback pal 25p as 24p. It would also
be possible to do create a pulldown sequence to encode 25p as 60p.
Do any upconvering pal HD DVD players exist?

Just some thoughts.





[QUOTE=John Colette]I shoot 50i and use a combination of the Nattress deinterlace plug ins and the re:vision fields kit. [on a mini35]

WHy the fuss about the 24 frame rate? I put media to DVD - 25 is fine. I put it to broadcast [PAL] - 25 is *better*. If you want a film output - do it at 25. You'd be surprised the speed that the commercial cinemas play films at - 24 runs the shows a little "long" - wasting valuable commercial time. They usually speed the projector to *at least* 25, adjusting the sound pitch down, because that way there is room for another commercial or two at the start. [Broadcasters do the same thing].

If there was sopme *special* need for 24 frame playback, then it would be a big issue. There isn't really a need and there is no great issue - except the idea that it's a magic number [requiring all sorts of drop frame processing in some post workflows] that gives a "real" "film look".

25i, deinterlaced and post produced frame for frame is fine - just like 24p with a 24 fame workflow is fine. The real issue in my experience is dynamic range on video - that's the missing feature of the "film look".

-j[/QUOTE
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Old February 20th, 2006, 07:42 AM   #11
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Yeah Reid, shooting PAL for 24p is definitely an option. When I first bought my mini35 I went with the Canon XL1se (PAL version) despite living here in North America. I wasn't planning on using the camera for anything else other than films so it was fine with me - plus the extra 20% resolution was a real bonus. I could shoot 4:3 with matte bars and end up with the SAME resolution as a you would shooting 4:3 NTSC in faux 16:9 mode.

And since you'll likely be using your computer for editing there's no issue capturing PAL footage, conforming it to a 24P time line and then stretching your audio by 4% (which you'd never be able tell was done.)

When you want to go to DVD you just perform a 3:2 pulldown to convert your footage from 24P to 30fps. This is what they do with real film, so you don't introduce any artifacts that people who watch films aren't use to seeing.

The downside of course is you might not be able to use the camera for other uses... but then again depending on how much post you are willing to go through you really can no problem.
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Old April 24th, 2006, 06:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Yasik
Ive tryed to use magic bullet, but i guess my computer is not fast enough... Im considering updating my processor which is right now at 466 MHz... Or it is the RAM? Im using 640 RAM...

If i update to a 1.62 GHZ proccessor and increment my RAM, will I be running Magic Bullet Faster???? Or is it a natively slow application?
I would highly recommend upgrading your system. Is that a P2? Computers are soo cheap these days there is no reason to not have a decent system. Also, remember that RAM will only help if you are running out of it.

Oh and don't bother upgrading that thing. Buy a new system. If you're running a 466mhz system, the entire box is dated... not just the processor. If money is a major concern, check out www.gotapex.com and www.dealnews.com daily. They update them all the time.

2 american pennies for ya
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