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Old November 23rd, 2005, 01:39 PM   #1
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The death of the 35mm Adapter?

Hello,
I was thinking how long it will be until 35mm adapters become redundant? I guess that wont be until they bring out 35mm CCD's cheaply. Am I correct? Anyone got any opinions/info on this subject?

Thanks,
Wayne
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 02:00 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Kinney
I guess that wont be until they bring out 35mm CCD's cheaply. Am I correct? Anyone got any opinions/info on this subject?
Dalsa http://www.dalsa.com/dc/origin/dc_design.asp
has one CMOS film frame size "spitting" out 4:4:4 on tape (for Panavision). It isnít cheap but is real and it is now. It will take "a while" though, to have them mass produced and available in Wall Mart.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 02:27 PM   #3
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The question is, will the indie filmmaking market be a large enough sector to justify this type of technology? It is very unlikely that a 35mm-size sensor will be a functional choice for the consumer video market, because auto-focus is not a good way to go in this format. One could argue that 35mm still cameras have good autofocus lenses, but consider that the process is not intended for continuous shooting--if you think that autofocus hunting is an issue with DV cameras, imagine with the radically shallower DoF of a large sensor--and no consumer will want to have to manually focus their home movies to the degree which will be required with such a system.

But of course, so many things are possible down the road that it's hard to say what will and what won't win out. For all we know, some sort of fuzzy logic circuit may ultimately be able to selectively de-focus backgrounds in DV cameras in the near future.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 03:37 PM   #4
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what is the format of that camera. (what kinda tape)? and how much is that camera (current price) now? Just curious. Couldn't find it on the site.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 06:18 PM   #5
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Regardless the size of the indie film makers market, I don't think it will ever turn into a consumer item (for the above mentioned reasons, thanks Charles). It just does not make sense to put a race car in everyone's hands on public roads (regardless how good the drivers think they are). Who would "need" a race car for...city traffic anyway? For "circuits", sure, it is available any time (rental info at the top right; roughly $5k/day and that's pretty bare bones) ....hmmm... "pretty bare bones".... arghhh
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 06:53 PM   #6
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All interesting stuff, thanks guys.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 09:19 PM   #7
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Steve--the Dalsa records to hard drive as there's too much data for any tape format, and I believe the camera is a rental-only item. And it's not cheap.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 12:36 AM   #8
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however, 35mm film SLRs did come cheap 'eventually' though people only needed much much less....(maybe 35mm is 'consumer anyway?)

?

do consumers need HD like the HC1?

do consumers need anything?

when will a consumer become an 'enthusiast' a 'prosumer' a 'professional' an 'artist'.

why do people drive Porsches? why damn you!!

check this camera out:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5d/

it has a 35mm film size sensor for a few grand. if it can do 24 frames per second (we'll get there) then we're in business. i reckon this sorta thing is closer than we think - number 1 reason: everyone on this board wants it.

p.s I know these single chips have heat issues etc etc but damn we're close
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Old November 24th, 2005, 02:40 AM   #9
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I don't think it'll ever become a mainstream consumer item.

It's not really so much the fact that autofocus presents a particular problem, it's rather that people have gotten used to camcorders with at least 12 x optical zoom lenses, and that's one of the selling points of these cameras. A 12 x zoom for a 35mm size sensor is going to be a big, heavy, expensive chunk of lens, and it's going to be fairly difficult for the average salesperson to explain why gaining the ability to shoot with a reduced depth of field means sacrificing the zoom.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 02:48 AM   #10
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Frank by 24 frames a second do you mean stop motion? because otherwise this camera only does 3 (unless you're talking about the 20D which does 5)
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Old November 24th, 2005, 05:14 AM   #11
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As contradictory as it may seem, I agree with several who have posted on this thread.

To answer Charles' question, I do think the market will go this way for prosumer cams. It's not just the indie film market as you say, though, as it also applies to plenty of broadcast media. If anybody thinks this niche of the market is small, I cite the XL H1's (and hopefully the HVX's) monitor flip button. That was done to support non-Canon aftermarket goodies.

Frank makes a great point. Does the buying public need much of anything? Nope.

Steve also very validly points out that cameras with big lenses will weigh a lot. Like Dan, I think this only applies to consumer cameras, though, as prosumer or low end professional cameras started large and heavy and are getting smaller.

What I'd like to point out is that Panasonic, Canon, JVC, Sony, and the others, are not trying to make the best possible camera on the planet and these prosumer cameras are what they were able to come up with. What they are trying to do is make a profit. They do this by structuring their product lines into various niches that fit various buyer profiles, hence, different models of cameras. They carry the lifecycle of each model of camera long enough to sell as many as possible, and then upgrade enough to remain competitive, and not much further than that.

I will be surprised if the market doesn't feed us larger and larger sensors, a step at a time.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 09:18 AM   #12
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Can I ask a silly question. How many consumers buy a $3500 camera to only shoot home video and vacations? Maybe people who have money to burn but I doubt they make up the majority of sales for these units. They don't really even sell these cameras in most stores (i.e. best buy, circuit city, target, walmart). The places the majority of American consumers shop for this type of thing.

The people buying these cameras are enthusiasts, indie filmmakers, professional videographers and otherwise people who are interested in doing more with the technology and in doing so want manual options. I could see a large image sensor fitting into those sought after options. It already is, it just isn't available.

But even with all that said I doubt we'll see it, at least anytime within the next five years.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 02:13 PM   #13
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Very interesting...

Is it comparitive to the new Panavision?
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Old November 24th, 2005, 03:02 PM   #14
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http://jktfilms.com/VCKgenesis.htm
check the links under "video camera kits" and "demo reel"
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Old November 24th, 2005, 05:11 PM   #15
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The DOF is an effect that is used to focus attention on the subject and nothing around it. It has been deemed necessary for digital SLR's and that is why the frames are close to 35mm frames. Photographers want this. But Joe blow does not want it because its to hard to figure out how to take some quick pics.

The same goes for pro film making. Its an effect that is used by pro's and less by home film makers who video tape birthdays. Being and indie film maker means you want to be able to use the big film cameras or something similar at much less cost.

So with that said I doubt that 35mm adapters will go away. In fact this forum has proven the opposite. Their has been several adapters designed and being sold. I've seen things get pro quickly. Wayne has a glass 35mm adapter that solves the problems associated with the 10k USD (last price i head) P & S mount from technik. (The one i used had the center of the GG in the dead center of the picture)

Companies want smaller sensors. Image how many 1/6" sensors fit into the size of a 35mm sensor. Your talking a lot. If they can have the same res and smaller sensor and make 40 for the price of 1 35mm frame they will do it. It is easier for them to sell 40 sensors at 40 dollars then one sensor at 1600 dollars. Companies don't want big ticket items in their cameras because their big ticket for warrenty replacement which drives up even more cost. So sensor won't get bigger unless the wafer cost can be brought down dramatically.

I'd be surprise if in 10 years you didn't see canon or panasonic or sony figure something out for an adapter that is designed for one of their cameras or even built into it. Maybe 2/3" will become the standard with better lense to achieve the same look but even 2/3" sensors are still a little pricey. So that is the only compromise I see. Faster lenses plus 2/3" could replace 35mm adapters but that will be a few years off.

Just a note: Dalsa origin is CCD not CMOS. And its a FT CCD designed and built by dalsa.
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