OT - viewing area in viewfinder smaller than actual?

Joshua Provost · December 9th, 2005, 02:12 PM

Bill,

What will you see on the DVX100? I didn't notice this aspect the two days I used one.

Josh

Joseph Andolina · December 9th, 2005, 07:22 PM

My question is with a current "festival potential" project, if the footage is projected on a bigger screen as upposed to a 21' or let's say a 52' TV, would the safe area still be the same in th frame, or would more be seen on the edges of the frame? that's my concern at the moment...

Boyd Ostroff · December 9th, 2005, 07:39 PM

That will probably have a lot to do with the specific projection equipment and the method of connecting it to the playback device. I have used several different 10,000 lumen projectors from Barco, Digital Projection, Sanyo and Christie on 40+ foot wide screens. When connected to a computer via DVI or hard drive based Doremi deck via component video the entire frame was shown.

Now if you were using something more like a home theatre projector with an s-video interface it wouldn't surprise me if there was overscan, but I don't have any experience with that. I do know that my two LCD HD monitors and my plasma screen all overscan however.

Joshua Provost · December 9th, 2005, 09:10 PM

Joseph,

As Boyd says, projection will vary from projector to projector. Now, if you want to do a film out and project the film, they will want to use as much of the digital frame as possible, for best quality. Usually the whole frame.

When I edit, if there is something undesirable in the overscan, I sometimes crop an equal amount from both sides of the frame, say 8, 16, or 24 pixels.

Josh

Bill Porter · December 9th, 2005, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Provost

Bill,

What will you see on the DVX100? I didn't notice this aspect the two days I used one.

Josh

Just that a little of the unsafe area that's not shown on the DVX's LCD, does show up on a TV screen. Maybe you were shooting in one of the 16:9 modes so it was less evident, or maybe you didn't have anything obtrusive in the shot in that overscan area. But, I have had some nasty surprises with mine! :)

Steev Dinkins · December 10th, 2005, 12:37 AM

This is why the XL2 or the HVX200 with their letterboxed, yet true 16:9 viewing is superior in letting you at least see the precise top and bottom of your frame. The left and the right leaves you ignorant of some pixels in both directions, but the only real solution would be for the camera to include an overscan option.

If you want overscan, it appears that the Sony Z1 is one of the few in town.

http://tinyurl.com/arz3j

I don't know of any others in the prosumer space.

Other than that, time to bring a monitor along that supports overscan. Good luck finding something portable.

Boyd Ostroff · December 10th, 2005, 09:14 AM

The "all scan" feature on the Z1 is a bit of a mixed blessing. I didn't really understand what that meant until recently. There's a menu option for displaying the safe areas in the VF/LCD so I turned that on and shot a bunch of stuff happily thinking I saw the full frame. Well I really messed up one shoot, and learned that the "safe areas" are very conservative and even when they are turned on the VF still overscans significantly. This seems really wrong to me.

The only way to see the full frame on the Z1 is to enable ALL SCAN, and it only works when the camera is in HDV mode (a disappointment since I shoot a lot of regular DV). When you turn it on it puts a fat black border around the image and shows the full frame in the middle. This would be useful for checking things, but not a mode I'd want to actually shoot in since you waste too much of the LCD's active area with that black border and it's hard enough to focus even when the image fills the screen.

So it's a nice little feature, but not as useful as I'd hoped it would be.

Steev Dinkins · December 10th, 2005, 10:34 AM

Hmm, damn, bummer.

I think it's time for Bill Porter to come up with a TFT w/overscan solution! Heh heh ;)

I think the big issue, as I'm deducing here is coming back after a shoot and discovering you have vignetting in your image. To that I recommend, establishing your zoom and focus settings in advance by looking at it via FCP (or your choice of NLE) via FireWire so you can see reality. Make note, then never forget. :)

There could be other instances where you have a small amount of unforeseen detail in your framing compositionaly that is less than desired, but I've never been too concerned. My number one concern that I think is more aesthetically critical is top/bottom composition, way more than left/right. The XL2 (my former camera) and the HVX200 let you see the top/bottom exactly.

The other thought is to crop in post, which is exactly what I had to do with my XL2/16x manual lens/U35A. I always had a vignette that I had to crop. I just lumped it into the "gotta do in post" category along with image flipping. Haha.

Boyd Ostroff · December 10th, 2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steev Dinkins

establishing your zoom and focus settings in advance by looking at it via FCP (or your choice of NLE) via FireWire so you can see reality.

I have used BTV Pro a lot for this. You can connect via firewire (although DV only) and view fullscreen video. Not full resolution unfortunately, and the colorspace won't be like an NTSC monitor, but very useful nonetheless:

http://www.bensoftware.com/btvpro.html

December 9th, 2005, 02:12 PM	#16
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Bill, What will you see on the DVX100? I didn't notice this aspect the two days I used one. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

December 9th, 2005, 09:10 PM	#19
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Joseph, As Boyd says, projection will vary from projector to projector. Now, if you want to do a film out and project the film, they will want to use as much of the digital frame as possible, for best quality. Usually the whole frame. When I edit, if there is something undesirable in the overscan, I sometimes crop an equal amount from both sides of the frame, say 8, 16, or 24 pixels. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

December 10th, 2005, 12:37 AM	#21
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	This is why the XL2 or the HVX200 with their letterboxed, yet true 16:9 viewing is superior in letting you at least see the precise top and bottom of your frame. The left and the right leaves you ignorant of some pixels in both directions, but the only real solution would be for the camera to include an overscan option. If you want overscan, it appears that the Sony Z1 is one of the few in town. http://tinyurl.com/arz3j I don't know of any others in the prosumer space. Other than that, time to bring a monitor along that supports overscan. Good luck finding something portable. __________________ www.holyzoo.com

December 10th, 2005, 10:34 AM	#23
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	Hmm, damn, bummer. I think it's time for Bill Porter to come up with a TFT w/overscan solution! Heh heh ;) I think the big issue, as I'm deducing here is coming back after a shoot and discovering you have vignetting in your image. To that I recommend, establishing your zoom and focus settings in advance by looking at it via FCP (or your choice of NLE) via FireWire so you can see reality. Make note, then never forget. :) There could be other instances where you have a small amount of unforeseen detail in your framing compositionaly that is less than desired, but I've never been too concerned. My number one concern that I think is more aesthetically critical is top/bottom composition, way more than left/right. The XL2 (my former camera) and the HVX200 let you see the top/bottom exactly. The other thought is to crop in post, which is exactly what I had to do with my XL2/16x manual lens/U35A. I always had a vignette that I had to crop. I just lumped it into the "gotta do in post" category along with image flipping. Haha. __________________ www.holyzoo.com

December 9th, 2005, 07:22 PM	#17
Joseph Andolina Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 178	My question is with a current "festival potential" project, if the footage is projected on a bigger screen as upposed to a 21' or let's say a 52' TV, would the safe area still be the same in th frame, or would more be seen on the edges of the frame? that's my concern at the moment...

December 9th, 2005, 07:39 PM	#18
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	That will probably have a lot to do with the specific projection equipment and the method of connecting it to the playback device. I have used several different 10,000 lumen projectors from Barco, Digital Projection, Sanyo and Christie on 40+ foot wide screens. When connected to a computer via DVI or hard drive based Doremi deck via component video the entire frame was shown. Now if you were using something more like a home theatre projector with an s-video interface it wouldn't surprise me if there was overscan, but I don't have any experience with that. I do know that my two LCD HD monitors and my plasma screen all overscan however.

December 10th, 2005, 09:14 AM	#22
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	The "all scan" feature on the Z1 is a bit of a mixed blessing. I didn't really understand what that meant until recently. There's a menu option for displaying the safe areas in the VF/LCD so I turned that on and shot a bunch of stuff happily thinking I saw the full frame. Well I really messed up one shoot, and learned that the "safe areas" are very conservative and even when they are turned on the VF still overscans significantly. This seems really wrong to me. The only way to see the full frame on the Z1 is to enable ALL SCAN, and it only works when the camera is in HDV mode (a disappointment since I shoot a lot of regular DV). When you turn it on it puts a fat black border around the image and shows the full frame in the middle. This would be useful for checking things, but not a mode I'd want to actually shoot in since you waste too much of the LCD's active area with that black border and it's hard enough to focus even when the image fills the screen. So it's a nice little feature, but not as useful as I'd hoped it would be.