Opinions, please, on quality

Ash Greyson · October 14th, 2006, 11:37 AM

It is nothing personal, no worries. Your calculations, while logical, dont really hold up. The CCDs are never really EXACTLY 1/3". There is very little real world difference in DOF in any cameras in the class. Because of the longer lens, the XL2 CAN get a more shallow DOF but THAT is the reason.

ash =o)

Thomas Richter · October 14th, 2006, 12:29 PM

Yes, you are right, the manufacturers just roughly classify the sensors, you never know exactly how many millimeters they are wide/high. I am with you on that point.

And, the longer lens definitely helps as well. I made the observation, that the image - while having shallow DOF- is too compressed at full zoom. I think something like 20mm with the background far away is an acceptable DOF situation.

To come back to the topic: Justin, it may be a good idea to use your XL2 wide open without adapter at daylight shots, and the adapter with lots of lightning for indoors. That way you will make sure the really shallow adapter footage is not too dominant throughout your feature. It also imitates the way the shot up to the 90s, grainy indoors film with wide aperture, slow but grain free outdoor film with lens stopped down. If you manage to match footage in post this may be a viable option.

All the best and good luck,

Thomas

Justine Haupt · October 14th, 2006, 12:46 PM

Ah, this was my main concern. This film takes place entirely at night... not my choosing (I like daylight).

In fact, my adapter performs so well in daylight I would normally always use it for exterior (day) shots, but I've pretty much decided just to forget the adapter for this one -- it's more trouble than it's worth and the quality just isn't there for artificial lighting.

On that second clip I posted I also realized I was using a faster lens, which unfortunately wont get the wide angle shots I was partly after. In fact, I haven't really had the need until this point for the Canon 3X lens because I could always throw a 28mm on the mini35... now I might put the 3X on my wishlist.

It's an exciting shoot... four of the principles have been in major features, so naturally I'm obsessing more than usual about the look.

Thomas Richter · October 14th, 2006, 02:51 PM

Hi Justin,

I've got one more crazy idea for you: have you ever thought of adapting super 8 film lenses to your XL2?

They are usually damn fast and quite cheap. The focal flange might be a problem - would have to look that one up in case you are interested.

All the best,

Tom

Justine Haupt · October 14th, 2006, 05:42 PM

Crazy indeed! Really? Has that ever been done? I'd actually considered shooting part of this on super8. Also, in the past I've thought about trying to make an XL adapter that would let me use a Canon digital lens on a super8 cam (Bauer or Beallieu or something) for super resolving power.... but the other way around? Very interesting.

I'm guessing the frame area on super 8 is around 6mm... I think that's a little less than 1/3", but I don't know if it's so much smaller that vignetting would become an issue -- my guess is "probably".

I've never heard that 8mm lenses are faster. Can you give me an idea of an f-speed you've seen?

It would probably be way too much work to be worth the slightly shallower DOF... just sticking with mini35 I think would be better, but I always like to hear about crazy experiments/rigs, or ideas for them anyway.

Thomas Richter · October 15th, 2006, 04:31 AM

Hi Justin,

glad I can be of any help. Here are two examples of S8 lenses:
Angenieux 1.4/6-90mm
Bauer MACRO-Neovaron lens 1.2/6-51mm

Quite a wide apperture considering the zoom range.

Another option can be 16mm primes, which will definitely cover the entire imaging area. I got a Schneider Xenon 1.5 25mm. You can also get 1.0 or 0.95 lenses, but usually in the 20-50mm range. So no wide angle.

You will have to be carefull opening the aperture too wide - the microlens structure on the CCD will make the image go really unsharp at apertures wider than 1.4

I've got suggestion, if you pay for the shipment you can borrow my Schneider Xenon for experimenting / shooting (for free). I am probably not using it for a long time (the 16mm days are gone) and I would love to support your project.

All the best,

tom

Justine Haupt · October 17th, 2006, 01:45 PM

Thomas, I might take you up on your 16mm offer... how fast is that lens? Focal length? The only thing -- what kind of mount is it... PL? I would need to find an XL adapter for it.

Thomas Richter · October 29th, 2006, 03:33 PM

Hi Justin,

sorry for not replying. I had been on holiday with no internet access (deliberately - no access no work, but unfortunately also no DVinfo)

The lens is a Schneider Kreuznach "Xenon" prime 25mm F 1.5. It is a small construction for the triple revolver mounts that were on the 16mm news and documentary cameras used up to the 80s. Its small, all metal with a c-mount thread, so it should not be too difficult to improvise the mount for testing. The mount of the lens also has a small dent (thats why I got it for an alright price), which does not affect the optical performance. The optical flange is bolex mount 17mm ish (I can look that up if you want).

eMail me your address, once you got it Paypal me the dough for the shipment or put my name somewhere hidden in the credits of your film - whichever you prefer ;-)

It's difficult to damage a full metal lens, but please promise me to handle it with reasonable care.

All the best,

Tom

October 14th, 2006, 12:46 PM	#18
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Ah, this was my main concern. This film takes place entirely at night... not my choosing (I like daylight). In fact, my adapter performs so well in daylight I would normally always use it for exterior (day) shots, but I've pretty much decided just to forget the adapter for this one -- it's more trouble than it's worth and the quality just isn't there for artificial lighting. On that second clip I posted I also realized I was using a faster lens, which unfortunately wont get the wide angle shots I was partly after. In fact, I haven't really had the need until this point for the Canon 3X lens because I could always throw a 28mm on the mini35... now I might put the 3X on my wishlist. It's an exciting shoot... four of the principles have been in major features, so naturally I'm obsessing more than usual about the look. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

October 14th, 2006, 05:42 PM	#20
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Crazy indeed! Really? Has that ever been done? I'd actually considered shooting part of this on super8. Also, in the past I've thought about trying to make an XL adapter that would let me use a Canon digital lens on a super8 cam (Bauer or Beallieu or something) for super resolving power.... but the other way around? Very interesting. I'm guessing the frame area on super 8 is around 6mm... I think that's a little less than 1/3", but I don't know if it's so much smaller that vignetting would become an issue -- my guess is "probably". I've never heard that 8mm lenses are faster. Can you give me an idea of an f-speed you've seen? It would probably be way too much work to be worth the slightly shallower DOF... just sticking with mini35 I think would be better, but I always like to hear about crazy experiments/rigs, or ideas for them anyway. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

October 17th, 2006, 01:45 PM	#22
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Thomas, I might take you up on your 16mm offer... how fast is that lens? Focal length? The only thing -- what kind of mount is it... PL? I would need to find an XL adapter for it. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

October 14th, 2006, 11:37 AM	#16
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	It is nothing personal, no worries. Your calculations, while logical, dont really hold up. The CCDs are never really EXACTLY 1/3". There is very little real world difference in DOF in any cameras in the class. Because of the longer lens, the XL2 CAN get a more shallow DOF but THAT is the reason. ash =o)

October 14th, 2006, 12:29 PM	#17
Thomas Richter Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 181	Yes, you are right, the manufacturers just roughly classify the sensors, you never know exactly how many millimeters they are wide/high. I am with you on that point. And, the longer lens definitely helps as well. I made the observation, that the image - while having shallow DOF- is too compressed at full zoom. I think something like 20mm with the background far away is an acceptable DOF situation. To come back to the topic: Justin, it may be a good idea to use your XL2 wide open without adapter at daylight shots, and the adapter with lots of lightning for indoors. That way you will make sure the really shallow adapter footage is not too dominant throughout your feature. It also imitates the way the shot up to the 90s, grainy indoors film with wide aperture, slow but grain free outdoor film with lens stopped down. If you manage to match footage in post this may be a viable option. All the best and good luck, Thomas

October 14th, 2006, 02:51 PM	#19
Thomas Richter Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 181	Hi Justin, I've got one more crazy idea for you: have you ever thought of adapting super 8 film lenses to your XL2? They are usually damn fast and quite cheap. The focal flange might be a problem - would have to look that one up in case you are interested. All the best, Tom

October 15th, 2006, 04:31 AM	#21
Thomas Richter Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 181	Hi Justin, glad I can be of any help. Here are two examples of S8 lenses: Angenieux 1.4/6-90mm Bauer MACRO-Neovaron lens 1.2/6-51mm Quite a wide apperture considering the zoom range. Another option can be 16mm primes, which will definitely cover the entire imaging area. I got a Schneider Xenon 1.5 25mm. You can also get 1.0 or 0.95 lenses, but usually in the 20-50mm range. So no wide angle. You will have to be carefull opening the aperture too wide - the microlens structure on the CCD will make the image go really unsharp at apertures wider than 1.4 I've got suggestion, if you pay for the shipment you can borrow my Schneider Xenon for experimenting / shooting (for free). I am probably not using it for a long time (the 16mm days are gone) and I would love to support your project. All the best, tom

October 29th, 2006, 03:33 PM	#23
Thomas Richter Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 181	Hi Justin, sorry for not replying. I had been on holiday with no internet access (deliberately - no access no work, but unfortunately also no DVinfo) The lens is a Schneider Kreuznach "Xenon" prime 25mm F 1.5. It is a small construction for the triple revolver mounts that were on the 16mm news and documentary cameras used up to the 80s. Its small, all metal with a c-mount thread, so it should not be too difficult to improvise the mount for testing. The mount of the lens also has a small dent (thats why I got it for an alright price), which does not affect the optical performance. The optical flange is bolex mount 17mm ish (I can look that up if you want). eMail me your address, once you got it Paypal me the dough for the shipment or put my name somewhere hidden in the credits of your film - whichever you prefer ;-) It's difficult to damage a full metal lens, but please promise me to handle it with reasonable care. All the best, Tom