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Old January 29th, 2007, 06:03 PM   #151
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Phil -

We also appreciate the efforts you have done. It would have been great to be there in person as well to help with the setup, but unfortunately we aren't neighbors :) I have sent you some email that I think your tests don't reflect the capabilities of the M2. Perhaps we chat offline and give you a few setup pointers

Thanks

Brian
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Old January 29th, 2007, 06:04 PM   #152
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Phil - any chance in posting a full resolution sample of one of your stills? Mainly to see the full screen quality of the HVX with an adapter.

Cheers.

Post edited 7:05pm EST

Actually Phil if you do end up going back to try the CF3 can you grab a still without any 35mm adapter, just a still through the HXV itself?
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Old January 29th, 2007, 06:50 PM   #153
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The review is on my website.

I will do a clean shot on the hvx for comparison. In fact I won't wait until I get the new diffuser I will knock it off in the next couple of days. I will also stick up some hi res stills. How can I do it on this forum...iweb won't let me.

Brian, I think the test was pretty fairish, sure Wayne being there helped things a bit for his adaptor, but with his hard mount edge to edge sharpness would never be an issue.

You have to look at it as a standing start test. A camera and three adaptors starting from scratch. Set up times are an important factor. I clearly pointed out time and again that with more time and if I had set it up in front of a large monitor the edge to edge sharpness would have been better, but I am pretty positive about the M2 in my review. In fact as soon as I can I will get that hard mount sorted for my z1 and never take it off it. I just need to know that if I HAVE to take it off I can...Wayne's hard mount is very well designed making it easy to take the camera on and off

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Old January 29th, 2007, 07:00 PM   #154
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full rez files here

brevis, m2 then sgpro

interestingly the brevis is slightly warmer. I hadnt noticed it properly before...Dennis why would that be (I dont particulary care as if it was too warm as I would just balance accordingly)?
Attached Thumbnails
Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout-brevis3a.jpg   Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout-brevis3b.jpg  

Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout-m21.jpg   Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout-m21b.jpg  

Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout-sg2a.jpg   Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout-sg2b.jpg  

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Old January 29th, 2007, 07:39 PM   #155
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Hi Phil

I'm not sure to what you are referring re: hard mount, etc. I think I understand that you are saying you used the hardmount with some adapters and not the M2? That would provide some explanation. The M2 performs much better than your samples suggest, but tell you what. Rather than coming across like "yeah but" :) , I do commend you on the shootout, and perhaps we can work with you to better showcase what the M2 and other redrock gear is capable of.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 07:47 PM   #156
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From what I read in the review and understand the M2 uses a rubber boot to go from the camera lens over the tube of the M2. Therefore not being a "hard mount".

Is this correct?


By the way I honestly find the images from all the adapters to be acceptable in terms of image quality. I think the major differences may only be in the setup time, battery changing time, battery hours, light loss/gain, etc.. Likely however with more time for tweaking each adapter can produce exceptional results.

Last edited by Dennis Hingsberg; January 29th, 2007 at 08:31 PM.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 08:12 PM   #157
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Hi Dennis

The M2 can be used in either configuration - the "soft mount" (as it's been called) allows it to be fitted to just about any camera out there. The "hard mount" is for some of the more mainstream cameras to lock down the connection.

This is always the challenge with shootouts - what's the criteria to be used? image quality for sure, which is really what I was commenting on. There are other things to consider - quality of build translates to important considerations such as longevity on the set, ability to handle large lenses, etc. The M2 has the unique ability to stop down to f16 or more without showing grain. That wasn't something covered in the shootout, nor did I think Phil intended his work to be comprehensive (I don't mean to put words in your mouth, so please feel free to correct me Phil).

Cheers

Brian
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Old January 29th, 2007, 09:11 PM   #158
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Just to chime in...

I own the M2 and I adapted an external battery 9v holder to the unit so battery change time is next to nothing (and the motor still spins at the same speed).

I do look forward to a hard mount (I have the Z1U and the V1U; I plan on using the V1U with the M2). I plan on leaving the M2 attached at all times, and definitely a hard mount will help in keeping the camera/M2 aligned.

I've been pretty close at getting edge to edge sharpness, and I'm pretty pleased with the image. I still have a way to go to get 'perfection', but I'm still happy (and I always get the 'wow' factor when people see the footage).

Todd
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Old January 30th, 2007, 12:33 AM   #159
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Phil, jeeps, this thread has over 10 000 hits! I suspect the difference in colour temp has to do with the coated optics in the unit. Every single optical surface in/on the unit is coated. While it would be nice (and a lot cheaper) to remove the fore/aft shield optics, I think most would agree that keeping the interior of the unit free of dust/debris is good trade-off. Paul Nordin just finished a shoot and posted up pics of the HVX/Brevis car mounted (on the outside of a truck) in Mexico. Dusty!
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Old January 30th, 2007, 03:22 AM   #160
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Hi Guys

This shootout wasn't supposed to be comprehensive. If it was I would have done a scientific comparison between them. It was just a chance for these three adaptors to be in the same place at the same time for the first time and quick test between them all.

I did mention fast shutter speed being a breeze for the m2 and sgpro. I will also add that to the text and mention about how far it can stop down.

I should have realised I was creating a rod for my own back with this but I really do hope that it helps people understand the differences between the three...
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Old January 30th, 2007, 04:03 AM   #161
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A very fair an honest review, Phil, thanks for your efforts.

While on the subject of stopping down the 35mm lens aperture, this clip shows the SGpro with HVX200 with the lens stopped down to F22 in the first shot and F16 for the rest, which might be of interested:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=83783

I agree the M2 could have produced better images with a little more setup time, but as phil said we were pushed for time. As brain said, the M2 also has an optional hard mount.

I will point out a few important features of the SGpro that seem unique and not mentioned in the shootout:

Fully interchangeable lens mounts (12 available including PL and OCT-19):
Easy to swap from one mount to another via 3 small screws from the front of the box, takes about 30 seconds. The difference in register is machined into the mounts, so no GG adjustment is needed.

The SGpro support system:
Fully adjustable up/down/left/right with included shims. There is also a seperate tripod clamp the slides independently along the rods to allow you to balance the rig on the tripod.

External battery pack for easy access:
2AA external battery pack makes it easy to change batteries on set. a set of batteries will last over 8 hours.

Thanks again Phil for your time in writing this up, from the amount of page views it looks like it has helped alot of people.
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Old January 30th, 2007, 05:25 AM   #162
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[QUOTE=Phil Bloom]I have got much better images with my Brevis at other times, same with the M2. Wayne has a great adaptor and by having him there did give his SGPro an advantage over the others. A really fair comparison would be to get all the makers together with three identical cameras shooting the same scene side by side, this of course is probably never going to happen.


Thanks for the review Phil. I think a really fair comparison would be to have no manufacturer attend a shoot out. Now that probably could happen.

Because let's face it in the real world of shooting we never have the man from arri or sony standing next to us.

I really do love what these guys are trying to do. But are they still just DIY projects being produced on a larger scale?

I'm also wondering what kind of insurance policy any of the adaptors carry for mechanical failure during shooting? What guarantee do these things come with?

This is not supposed to be rude or confrontational or down on anyone I'm just asking questions.
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Old January 30th, 2007, 06:45 AM   #163
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Wayne

I've sent you a PM


Ta


Andrew
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Old January 30th, 2007, 07:15 AM   #164
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wao! just over a night, this thread has grown for another two pages!! So much to catch up...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Hingsberg
Using the same lens f-stop you would use a ND4 (also known as .6) to stop down by exactly 2 stops and get the approximate same exposure level.
Thank you Dennis, my concern is, even with ND .9, you will still get plenty of over-exposure. A test carried out by Richard a while ago, he applied .3 + .9 ND in a outdoor test, see how much over-exposure with Brevis adapter: http://www.richard-darge.com/m2brevis.htm.

I made a screengrabs below for direct comparison, please see the attachment (see the len aperture has already close down to f4).

And I wonder if I use the Mattebox, can I add multiple ND filters all together into the filter slot ? And if I add two .9 ND, will it make the image look unnature ? I don't want to cover up the exposure in the expense of darken up people faces too... (front objects).

I am particular concerning about the over-exposure because shooting video in Malaysia especially wedding, 80% of the activity carries out at the daytime with at least 40% at outdoor. Even in the indoor situation, most of the houses here have big shinny windows & doors, thus back-lighting happens most of the time regardless indoor or outdoor.

Good ND filters are not cheap but I won't mind as long as the quality remain nature and applicable.

======================

And for all, I believe we all agree that Phil has done a very good review by posting out images from various adapters for side-by-side comparison, and I find his comments honest and really useful.

It is not comprehensive and he didn't plan to do it so too, just a day out shooting with many nights of struggling to share his thoughts to us yet no one in the world can do this so far.

And his reviews have gained so much attention and inputs from users with their own adapter preference, I would hope to see more screengrab or footage to support your point of preference.

Perhaps Chris can help to summarise everything just like the wish-list we made for improving XH-A1 :-).

Really appreciated.

**(attachment in next page.. i forgot to attach it here) **
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Old January 30th, 2007, 07:16 AM   #165
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Sorry, forgot the attachment...
Attached Thumbnails
Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout-richard_test_brevis.jpg   Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout-richard_test_m2.jpg  

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