New DIY HD Cinema Camera Project

Jose A. Garcia · August 10th, 2007, 08:29 AM

Wow! Nice to be here again!

I'm sorry I didn't post here in the last few days. I was moving from my flat and (of course) my ISP's not giving me internet untill next month. You know... They have to cancel my account, set up another one...

I'm glad to see people here's looking for other solutions besides FPGA. I'd like to know if anyone's researching on real time computer based lossless compression for the Micron board. If that's possible, it would be a great solution for people like me who can't program a FPGA.

Igor Babic · August 10th, 2007, 12:48 PM

Hello Jose, nice to see you again. I am back from holidays. I have seen that this thread goes in a direction that is not your favorite (mine too). I have also move on with my mechanics for HV20, and other 35mm adapter.
There on aaoen site I have found that you have representative for their stuff in Spain so you can ask them for this aaeon board that I have mention earlier. I am still intrested in this board because it has PCIe and PCI expansion port. So it can be used for other stuff too.
GigE cameras has always been my favorite but good ones with big sensor are always over 4000$
http://www.jai.com/EN/CameraSolution...MC-2030GE.aspx
http://www.imperx.com/machine_vision...ion/index.html
Both are HD resolution but they come with software for capture and playback. They are using Kodak CMOS sensors so no rolling shutter but there are other problems like multi tap.
Here is 2K one:
http://www.imperx.com/machine_vision...meg/index.html

Jose, send me those numbers I have ask you...

Take Vos · August 10th, 2007, 01:08 PM

Hi everyone,

I've been playing a bit with that posteriori debayer algortithm.

I have found that the implementation would be much heaver than AHD. Although it does less mathematical operations, it does have more memory accesses. Plus there is a lot of overhead as most operations are only done on one specific kind of pixel at a time, which can be not be done in parallel.

But there are some really interesting parts of the posteriori, so I have been mixing AHD and posteriori together.

I've replaced red/blue in blue/red pixel interpolator, as the AHD does simple bilinear interpolation on the red/green or blue/green difference. The posteriori version uses the horizontal or vertical direction. This can be done in AHD as well you just do it for both horizontal and vertical directions.

I also replaced the artefact reduction which in AHD is running three times a median filter on the colour differences. The posteriori version uses knowledge about the real pixels in the bayer array.

I also found both version are doing colour difference interpolation. Which actually looks like a high frequency replacement like is shown in the pdf of the posteriori. However I found the math to be wrong, they do not scale the high frequency component before replacing it, which looked really ugly. By scaling the high frequency component by the division of both low frequency components it seem to work correctly.

I have also tried replacing the green interpolator, using scaled high frequency replacement. It seems to work, but I see no difference between the normal AHD version and my own replacement. Mathematically it seems the AHD interpolator is incorrect.

Cheers,
Take

David Delaney · August 16th, 2007, 10:13 AM

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/16/a...support-1440p/

Anmol Mishra · August 16th, 2007, 10:55 AM

I've got a background in embedded systems and I read this thread till Pg 19. Then got confused and sleepy. I'm trying to do something similar - but with GigE or IIDC (Firewire)
Would someone mind summarizing all the projects going on ? Also, how can I help - I'm just about to get my equipment.

Jose A. Garcia · August 16th, 2007, 06:00 PM

Actually this thread has been kinda silent for about one or two weeks. Two usual posters are working on a FPGA solution but I don't know anything else about it. We were also discussing about a software solution for the Micron board. Some kind of realtime compression so the stream can be easily recorded, but we still have the bandwidth problem. I mean, we don't compress the stream before sending it to the computer, so needed bandwidth is still too large for usb to handle. There's also another option. If we modify the Micron board's FPGA code to lossless compress the stream, the usb interface will be able to handle it without any problem, but again we need a FPGA programmer.

As for me, I'm not a programmer, nor a hardware engineer, so I'm looking for easy to build and cheap enough solutions. So far the Elphel 353, a 3.5" mini computer and a 7" touchscreen lcd all toghether as a whole camera sound like the best option to have a full 2k (2.39:1) 24fps progresive camera. That and an adaptor can, IMHO, get us very close to Digital Cinema.

Jose A. Garcia · August 16th, 2007, 06:01 PM

By the way... What's exactly the link David posted? Is that a solution to record 1440p through HDMI?

Igor Babic · August 17th, 2007, 05:16 AM

This is a switch for two 1440p capable HDMI devices for playing on one HDMI display(you have remote for switching between them).

David Delaney · August 17th, 2007, 09:38 AM

Also, smaller computers :
http://www.stealthcomputer.com/littlepc_350_pcislot.htm

Gottfried Hofmann · August 19th, 2007, 12:07 PM

Jose: You mentioned earlier that you where successfull when recording to 10.000 rmp HDDs - so the USB can handle the data rate for full 2k. Which means that a software solution should be possible...

Jose A. Garcia · August 19th, 2007, 05:41 PM

It can handle the data rate overclocked and with a 10000rpm HDD, but it's possible.

Anmol Mishra · August 22nd, 2007, 04:32 AM

There was a post about a 200$ HDMI recorder solution - any idea what it was about ?
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=732317

Gottfried Hofmann · August 22nd, 2007, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

It can handle the data rate overclocked and with a 10000rpm HDD, but it's possible.

If you build that camera with the integrated mini-PC then overclocking should be OK. Just use short and well-insulated cables.

Anmol Mishra · August 22nd, 2007, 06:10 AM

From www.ffv.com their flash based record - miniDVR Pro uses an embedded 386. The processor used in Neuros OSD is a dual core ARM 9/TI DSP. If you integrate an MJPEG hw encoder and CPU on a chip and have high I/O you dont really need that much power. Software is incredibley inefficient compared to doing something in h/w..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Kersey

I have been keeping an eye on this thread for a while, you have made some real progress!

In regards to the miniPC options, I have been doing some research into embedded solutions for some time now and would like to share.

My first thought when contemplating building a portable PC to record HD with was to use PC/104+ modules, but the cost of decent PC/104+ CPU boards (1 GHz and up) was near or over $1000 USD, so it looked unlikely. The upside is that everything I would need could be added to the "stack", such as hardware RAID and FireWire and even Framegrabbers... and the boards are only 90mm x 96mm.

Another option, as someone else mentioned, are the 3.5" SBC based systems. I personally felt that this was slightly too big for my purposes, as I am trying to build the computer into the final camera. The size of 3.5" boards are actually approximately 102mm x 156mm (or the size of a 3.5" disk drive). Prices on these are not too bad, you can find decent 1.8 GHz systems for under $700 USD.

Next. and maybe the most accessible to end-users, are the new Pico-ITX boards from VIA that should be shipping by the end of this month. There is no word on price officially, but some estimate it at $350 to $450 USD. These are 72mm x 100mm and have a LVDS/DVI and a duaghter board with additional TV out. Downside, 1 Ghz processor (enough???), only one SATA and no GigE.

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/ma...erboard_id=472

The last option, and the one that I am attempting, is to use a system called COMexpress or sometimes called ETXexpress. These systems provide great flexibility in the design, with fast processors and lots of memory (some up to 4 gig) in 95mm x 125mm. The downside, the CPU modules have only the chips and electronics... no connectors! They require a "carrier board" that holds all of the connectors (and some supporting electronics). The CPU modules do offer a lot though... Gige, USB, TV out, duel SDVO, up to 4 SATA (some offer on-board RAID), and it runs with a PCIexpress bus including support for a PEG slot. The Kontron ETXexpress-PM (without CPU) can be had for around $330 USD... plus the cost of building the carrier board.

http://www.congatec.com/b945.html?&L...k%28this%29%3B
http://us.kontron.com/index.php?id=82&cat=460

I have started designing a carrier board, but I am very BAD when it come to electronics and it does not seem like it will be a simple task, but I am going to try anyway. Kontron does have a design guide here http://us.kontron.com/downloads/whit...Guide_v1.4.pdf if any are interested.

Some places that I have found that sell these embedded systems are:
http://www.wdlsystems.com/index.shtml
http://store.orbitmicro.com/commerce...tegory_id=1018
http://www.eplatformpro.com/us/
http://www.emacinc.com/home.htm

Sorry for the long post.

Jose, what do you feel are the minimum requirements for capturing? Have you tried capturing to any other system? You are using a 2.4 GHz Core 2 Quad with 2 gigs of ram, correct?

Anmol Mishra · September 5th, 2007, 07:19 AM

So far, here is my list
Imperx IPX-2M30HC-L/LC / LYNX IPX-2M30H-G, LYNX IPX-2M30H-GC
Si-2K mini (just the camera head)
AVT PIKE F-210B/C
JAI TMC-2030GE

Any other Altasens 4562-based industrial cameras (1080P) ?
Any other links to ibis-5a based industrial camera (720P) ?
Any other cameras ?

August 10th, 2007, 01:08 PM	#348
Take Vos Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Amsterdam The Netherlands Posts: 200	Hi everyone, I've been playing a bit with that posteriori debayer algortithm. I have found that the implementation would be much heaver than AHD. Although it does less mathematical operations, it does have more memory accesses. Plus there is a lot of overhead as most operations are only done on one specific kind of pixel at a time, which can be not be done in parallel. But there are some really interesting parts of the posteriori, so I have been mixing AHD and posteriori together. I've replaced red/blue in blue/red pixel interpolator, as the AHD does simple bilinear interpolation on the red/green or blue/green difference. The posteriori version uses the horizontal or vertical direction. This can be done in AHD as well you just do it for both horizontal and vertical directions. I also replaced the artefact reduction which in AHD is running three times a median filter on the colour differences. The posteriori version uses knowledge about the real pixels in the bayer array. I also found both version are doing colour difference interpolation. Which actually looks like a high frequency replacement like is shown in the pdf of the posteriori. However I found the math to be wrong, they do not scale the high frequency component before replacing it, which looked really ugly. By scaling the high frequency component by the division of both low frequency components it seem to work correctly. I have also tried replacing the green interpolator, using scaled high frequency replacement. It seems to work, but I see no difference between the normal AHD version and my own replacement. Mathematically it seems the AHD interpolator is incorrect. Cheers, Take __________________ VOSGAMES, http://www.vosgames.nl/ developer of Boom Recorder and Mirage Recorder

August 16th, 2007, 10:13 AM	#349
David Delaney Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Niagara Ontario Canada Posts: 1,121	Will this help any? http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/16/a...support-1440p/

August 16th, 2007, 10:55 AM	#350
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Embedded Dev waiting to join in on the fun I've got a background in embedded systems and I read this thread till Pg 19. Then got confused and sleepy. I'm trying to do something similar - but with GigE or IIDC (Firewire) Would someone mind summarizing all the projects going on ? Also, how can I help - I'm just about to get my equipment.

August 22nd, 2007, 04:32 AM	#357
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Wayne's 200$ HDMI recorder There was a post about a 200$ HDMI recorder solution - any idea what it was about ? http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=732317

September 5th, 2007, 07:19 AM	#360
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Keeping the thread alive - list of possible cameras So far, here is my list Imperx IPX-2M30HC-L/LC / LYNX IPX-2M30H-G, LYNX IPX-2M30H-GC Si-2K mini (just the camera head) AVT PIKE F-210B/C JAI TMC-2030GE Any other Altasens 4562-based industrial cameras (1080P) ? Any other links to ibis-5a based industrial camera (720P) ? Any other cameras ?

August 10th, 2007, 08:29 AM	#346
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Wow! Nice to be here again! I'm sorry I didn't post here in the last few days. I was moving from my flat and (of course) my ISP's not giving me internet untill next month. You know... They have to cancel my account, set up another one... I'm glad to see people here's looking for other solutions besides FPGA. I'd like to know if anyone's researching on real time computer based lossless compression for the Micron board. If that's possible, it would be a great solution for people like me who can't program a FPGA.

August 10th, 2007, 12:48 PM	#347
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	Hello Jose, nice to see you again. I am back from holidays. I have seen that this thread goes in a direction that is not your favorite (mine too). I have also move on with my mechanics for HV20, and other 35mm adapter. There on aaoen site I have found that you have representative for their stuff in Spain so you can ask them for this aaeon board that I have mention earlier. I am still intrested in this board because it has PCIe and PCI expansion port. So it can be used for other stuff too. GigE cameras has always been my favorite but good ones with big sensor are always over 4000$ http://www.jai.com/EN/CameraSolution...MC-2030GE.aspx http://www.imperx.com/machine_vision...ion/index.html Both are HD resolution but they come with software for capture and playback. They are using Kodak CMOS sensors so no rolling shutter but there are other problems like multi tap. Here is 2K one: http://www.imperx.com/machine_vision...meg/index.html Jose, send me those numbers I have ask you...

August 16th, 2007, 06:00 PM	#351
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Actually this thread has been kinda silent for about one or two weeks. Two usual posters are working on a FPGA solution but I don't know anything else about it. We were also discussing about a software solution for the Micron board. Some kind of realtime compression so the stream can be easily recorded, but we still have the bandwidth problem. I mean, we don't compress the stream before sending it to the computer, so needed bandwidth is still too large for usb to handle. There's also another option. If we modify the Micron board's FPGA code to lossless compress the stream, the usb interface will be able to handle it without any problem, but again we need a FPGA programmer. As for me, I'm not a programmer, nor a hardware engineer, so I'm looking for easy to build and cheap enough solutions. So far the Elphel 353, a 3.5" mini computer and a 7" touchscreen lcd all toghether as a whole camera sound like the best option to have a full 2k (2.39:1) 24fps progresive camera. That and an adaptor can, IMHO, get us very close to Digital Cinema.

August 16th, 2007, 06:01 PM	#352
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	By the way... What's exactly the link David posted? Is that a solution to record 1440p through HDMI?

August 17th, 2007, 05:16 AM	#353
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	This is a switch for two 1440p capable HDMI devices for playing on one HDMI display(you have remote for switching between them).

August 17th, 2007, 09:38 AM	#354
David Delaney Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Niagara Ontario Canada Posts: 1,121	Also, smaller computers : http://www.stealthcomputer.com/littlepc_350_pcislot.htm

August 19th, 2007, 12:07 PM	#355
Gottfried Hofmann Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Erlangen, Germany Posts: 30	Jose: You mentioned earlier that you where successfull when recording to 10.000 rmp HDDs - so the USB can handle the data rate for full 2k. Which means that a software solution should be possible...

August 19th, 2007, 05:41 PM	#356
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	It can handle the data rate overclocked and with a 10000rpm HDD, but it's possible.