New DIY HD Cinema Camera Project

Jose A. Garcia · June 18th, 2007, 05:48 PM

I finally got a 28mm F2.8, a 50mm F1.4 and a 100mm F2.8 all Canon FD. Keh.com says that 50mm F1.4 FD is probably one of the best canon lenses ever, very bright and sharp. I can't wait to test them!

Jose A. Garcia · June 26th, 2007, 03:22 PM

I just ordered the demo board! I'll have it here in 3 to 5 days. I'll post some images as soon as I can. With and without adapter!

Bob Grant · June 26th, 2007, 04:16 PM

Jose,
can you post a link to the evaluation board that you've ordered?

I can't find it on the Micron site.

Jose A. Garcia · June 27th, 2007, 03:10 AM

In fact I didn't order it from Micron. If you contact Micron to buy any of its products, they send your request to your nearest reseller. In my case it was FRAMOS. Here's the link to the sensor I ordered:

http://www.framos.de/www.dir/en/prod.../index_en.html

David Braund · June 27th, 2007, 04:05 PM

amazing work

cant wait to see the end product

i too would like to film in 2K but its just not possible for me at the moment, plus my work isnt hitting cinemas so 1080p is pretty decent for me

Jose A. Garcia · June 27th, 2007, 04:22 PM

Thanks David. I'll post screens and clips asap.

Cole McDonald · June 27th, 2007, 04:39 PM

This is a very exciting project...can't wait to see how it comes out!

Wayne Morellini · June 28th, 2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Schaumberger

Hi guys,

just a thought.
Wouldnt it be easier to find a solution how to capture the HDMI output from an HV-20 to tape or HDDs or USB-Sticks. The HV-20 isnt that bad.

Something like cineporter did with the HVX200 but due to cheaper prices for the P2 cards the cineporter product is dead.

best regards
Daniel

There are an few threads on this already. The Intensity PCIE card is the cheapest, $249, new version has analogue capture at $349. You add to this an computer and drive. There maybe mini box computers with an PCIE slot, maybe intensity will someday come in portable solution. Otherwise, look up industrial computers, and car computers to see if any support this type of card. Mother boards can be as small as the Intensity card. Shuttle has Wii like computers, but no PCIE as far as I know (an bit of an draw back).

Noah Yuan-Vogel · June 28th, 2007, 10:14 PM

Are you building your own software interface for the camera? I did some stuff with the sumix M73 and its hardly a matter of having a camera that seems to match the 2k @24p specs... especially when all you have is usb. Have you checked out the micron software? Reading about your idea I thought these questions might be relevant:

-Does it support 10bit in 10bits or 16? If it stores 10 bits in 16 bits like many do, youll have trouble keeping adequate framerates and quick enough readout times.

-Does the software give you an interface for controlling vertical blanking or frame rate decimation? (important for reducing rolling shutter)

-How will you keep your framerate constant?

-How will you capture 2048x858@24fps (42MBps) over USB (~30MBps)? to a laptop harddrive (15-50MBps)?

-Is your laptop fast enough to debayer in realtime(for preview) while recording?

-are your 2.2um pixels going to be sensitive enough to light to still be useable when also losing light to a 35mm adapter?

-where does 4:2:2 come in? dont you mean 4:0:0? or arguably 4:2:0?

-are you building a chassis for the demo board? how will you make it ergonomic so you can hold it or aim it in the field?

For lenses, I say FD mount, since they have the shortest FFD so you can just buy a nikon F mount adapter which works without extra optics or FFD adjustment.

Jose A. Garcia · June 29th, 2007, 05:08 AM

Well... To be honest, the answer to some of those questions is "I don't know". but I'll try to answer them all. I've emailed Micron many times asking if it would be possible to achieve such speeds at such a high resolution while recording and the answer has always been 'yes'. I guess they know their own products.

1: I don't know the answer to the first question. If it helps, the sensor flyer says "On chip 12bit analog-to-digital converter". I guess that means the image has a 12bit depth.

2 and 3: The software Micron provides is able to program every single aspect of the sensor. That includes gain, frame rate, exposure time, horizontal and vertical blanking and image mirroring.

4: The evaluation board has a FPGA board appart from the camera head and its internal memory stores up to 3 full frames before sending the image to the computer. Micron says that's enough to avoid frame drops. We'll see if they're right. They also include their own USB pci board and drivers for the computer and that's the point IMO. If you're building an evaluation board for all your potential customers to see what your product can actually do when going at full speed/resolution and you can choose from a variety of interfaces to work with (Gig-E i.e.), you don't build it using an interface that doesn't show the actual potential of your product. You'd think they want to keep things easy using USB cause everyone has an USB 2.0 port on their computers, but they add a pci board within the whole package so that's not the reason, cause if the had chosen Gig-E, they'd have included a Gig-E board.

5: Debayering does not take place in real time. You see a monochrome image while capturing.

6: Micron says one of the strong points with this sensor is managing low light while keeping noise low. Again, we'll see. They also say (just for the record) it has a 60dB dynamic range.

7: I'm sorry. When I spoke about 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 I was refering to the fact that you get a full RAW bayer sequence after capturing (4:4:4) and the possibility of later encoding/compressing at higher quality (4:2:2) than most prosumer/pro solutions (4:2:0).

8: Yes, I'm also building a case for the camera. It's basically a box with a FD mount on one end and a USB port on the other. It'll also have 15mm standard rods with tripod mount and a homemade mattebox. I'm also thinking on building a very simple steady system.

If you have further questions or think that I'm mistaken in something I said feel free to say it. Like everyone else, I'm here to learn.

And of course like I said from the beginning, I can always choose to get an Elphel 353. It captures 1080p at 24fps 4:2:0 and that's a fact.

Cole McDonald · June 29th, 2007, 10:38 AM

So...once finished, what's my ballpark cost to buy one from you ;)

Jose A. Garcia · June 29th, 2007, 01:42 PM

LOL, I didn't think someone was going to be THAT interested. I'll post the final costs and parts when I finish the camera.

Cole McDonald · June 29th, 2007, 02:58 PM

We're all looking for the promise of 35mm with no film and painfully affordable. I'd love to get a RED, but my budget doesn't touch it yet.

Jose A. Garcia · June 29th, 2007, 04:54 PM

I know what you're talking about. In fact this project started after seeing what the RED was capable of. If I was able to build something a bit closer to film than the rest of the usual cameras out there I'd be happy.

Well, that and my personal dislike for interlaced video and the lack of narrow DOF you get with prosumer/pro cameras.

After reading lots of posts here I started mailing different manufacturers expecting huge prices, and answers like "we only sell stuff to big companies demanding thousands of units" but I got replies actually telling me the prices for just one sensor, one board... Many of them were in fact expensive but there were others which I could actually pay for. Suddenly everything was possible. The world was not limited to "Hey you, get yourself a Canon/Sony/JVC/Panasonic and consider yourself lucky or sell your soul to get $20,000 and buy a RED one".

I'm very happy this is turning out so well (for now) and don't worry Cole. If everything works as expected, you like what you will see here in a couple of weeks and you're still interested, I'll build one for you.

Cole McDonald · June 30th, 2007, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

Well, that and my personal dislike for interlaced video and the lack of narrow DOF you get with prosumer/pro cameras.

These are exactly my sticking points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

...I'll build one for you.

This thread gets better every time I read it :)!

June 27th, 2007, 04:39 PM	#37
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	This is a very exciting project...can't wait to see how it comes out! __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

June 29th, 2007, 10:38 AM	#41
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	So...once finished, what's my ballpark cost to buy one from you ;) __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

June 29th, 2007, 02:58 PM	#43
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	We're all looking for the promise of 35mm with no film and painfully affordable. I'd love to get a RED, but my budget doesn't touch it yet. __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

June 18th, 2007, 05:48 PM	#31
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	I finally got a 28mm F2.8, a 50mm F1.4 and a 100mm F2.8 all Canon FD. Keh.com says that 50mm F1.4 FD is probably one of the best canon lenses ever, very bright and sharp. I can't wait to test them!

June 26th, 2007, 03:22 PM	#32
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	I just ordered the demo board! I'll have it here in 3 to 5 days. I'll post some images as soon as I can. With and without adapter!

June 26th, 2007, 04:16 PM	#33
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Jose, can you post a link to the evaluation board that you've ordered? I can't find it on the Micron site.

June 27th, 2007, 03:10 AM	#34
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	In fact I didn't order it from Micron. If you contact Micron to buy any of its products, they send your request to your nearest reseller. In my case it was FRAMOS. Here's the link to the sensor I ordered: http://www.framos.de/www.dir/en/prod.../index_en.html

June 27th, 2007, 04:05 PM	#35
David Braund Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 75	amazing work cant wait to see the end product i too would like to film in 2K but its just not possible for me at the moment, plus my work isnt hitting cinemas so 1080p is pretty decent for me

June 27th, 2007, 04:22 PM	#36
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Thanks David. I'll post screens and clips asap.

June 28th, 2007, 10:14 PM	#39
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	Are you building your own software interface for the camera? I did some stuff with the sumix M73 and its hardly a matter of having a camera that seems to match the 2k @24p specs... especially when all you have is usb. Have you checked out the micron software? Reading about your idea I thought these questions might be relevant: -Does it support 10bit in 10bits or 16? If it stores 10 bits in 16 bits like many do, youll have trouble keeping adequate framerates and quick enough readout times. -Does the software give you an interface for controlling vertical blanking or frame rate decimation? (important for reducing rolling shutter) -How will you keep your framerate constant? -How will you capture 2048x858@24fps (42MBps) over USB (~30MBps)? to a laptop harddrive (15-50MBps)? -Is your laptop fast enough to debayer in realtime(for preview) while recording? -are your 2.2um pixels going to be sensitive enough to light to still be useable when also losing light to a 35mm adapter? -where does 4:2:2 come in? dont you mean 4:0:0? or arguably 4:2:0? -are you building a chassis for the demo board? how will you make it ergonomic so you can hold it or aim it in the field? For lenses, I say FD mount, since they have the shortest FFD so you can just buy a nikon F mount adapter which works without extra optics or FFD adjustment.

June 29th, 2007, 05:08 AM	#40
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Well... To be honest, the answer to some of those questions is "I don't know". but I'll try to answer them all. I've emailed Micron many times asking if it would be possible to achieve such speeds at such a high resolution while recording and the answer has always been 'yes'. I guess they know their own products. 1: I don't know the answer to the first question. If it helps, the sensor flyer says "On chip 12bit analog-to-digital converter". I guess that means the image has a 12bit depth. 2 and 3: The software Micron provides is able to program every single aspect of the sensor. That includes gain, frame rate, exposure time, horizontal and vertical blanking and image mirroring. 4: The evaluation board has a FPGA board appart from the camera head and its internal memory stores up to 3 full frames before sending the image to the computer. Micron says that's enough to avoid frame drops. We'll see if they're right. They also include their own USB pci board and drivers for the computer and that's the point IMO. If you're building an evaluation board for all your potential customers to see what your product can actually do when going at full speed/resolution and you can choose from a variety of interfaces to work with (Gig-E i.e.), you don't build it using an interface that doesn't show the actual potential of your product. You'd think they want to keep things easy using USB cause everyone has an USB 2.0 port on their computers, but they add a pci board within the whole package so that's not the reason, cause if the had chosen Gig-E, they'd have included a Gig-E board. 5: Debayering does not take place in real time. You see a monochrome image while capturing. 6: Micron says one of the strong points with this sensor is managing low light while keeping noise low. Again, we'll see. They also say (just for the record) it has a 60dB dynamic range. 7: I'm sorry. When I spoke about 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 I was refering to the fact that you get a full RAW bayer sequence after capturing (4:4:4) and the possibility of later encoding/compressing at higher quality (4:2:2) than most prosumer/pro solutions (4:2:0). 8: Yes, I'm also building a case for the camera. It's basically a box with a FD mount on one end and a USB port on the other. It'll also have 15mm standard rods with tripod mount and a homemade mattebox. I'm also thinking on building a very simple steady system. If you have further questions or think that I'm mistaken in something I said feel free to say it. Like everyone else, I'm here to learn. And of course like I said from the beginning, I can always choose to get an Elphel 353. It captures 1080p at 24fps 4:2:0 and that's a fact.

June 29th, 2007, 01:42 PM	#42
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	LOL, I didn't think someone was going to be THAT interested. I'll post the final costs and parts when I finish the camera.

June 29th, 2007, 04:54 PM	#44
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	I know what you're talking about. In fact this project started after seeing what the RED was capable of. If I was able to build something a bit closer to film than the rest of the usual cameras out there I'd be happy. Well, that and my personal dislike for interlaced video and the lack of narrow DOF you get with prosumer/pro cameras. After reading lots of posts here I started mailing different manufacturers expecting huge prices, and answers like "we only sell stuff to big companies demanding thousands of units" but I got replies actually telling me the prices for just one sensor, one board... Many of them were in fact expensive but there were others which I could actually pay for. Suddenly everything was possible. The world was not limited to "Hey you, get yourself a Canon/Sony/JVC/Panasonic and consider yourself lucky or sell your soul to get $20,000 and buy a RED one". I'm very happy this is turning out so well (for now) and don't worry Cole. If everything works as expected, you like what you will see here in a couple of weeks and you're still interested, I'll build one for you.