High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Long time no here, still got the same email?
So, still doing the Obsura, how is it going?

Good to hear from you Wayne! Yup, same e-mail address.

I re-started the project a month or so ago and am working on it as I have time. I'd love to get my hands on a Sumix M73 or an Elphel camera ... wish I had some extra cash.

[Wayne Morellini]

If you contact Andrey he has special pricing for developers, or maybe ask him for a loaner.

I find those sourceforge pages hard to follow, what's the level you are upto?

If you look at my Technical thread, you will find updates on some interesting technologies, except three or so new camera threads. The last few pages have the most relevant info to you. I don't have the technical link here with me, but here is another link that I have open in the background, on a sensor technology that has 170db range (latitude?).

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...45177&posted=1

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

I find those sourceforge pages hard to follow, what's the level you are upto?

It's basically alpha quality, currently only supporting the SI-1300CL.

The capture software will do 1280x720p 10-bit raw @ 24fps; on my system, this requires two hard drives in tandem. Multiple-drive support is built in; of course, you can use a RAID array or a very fast drive. It's a full-screen "heads-up" UI using DirectX. I'm going to investigate moving to OpenGL to be more portable.

The conversion software will process the raw images into 16-bit TIFF. Eventually it will support OpenEXR and DNG (for processing elsewhere). It is currently command-line only.

[Edit] One of the issues going forward is that nobody I know of has the SI-1300 and I doubt anyone will go out and buy one just to use this software. Obin was doing something similar (I didn't read the entire thread) and tried the SI-3300 then gave up (as far as I know).

On the other hand, the Elphel is attractive because its' firmware is also open-source, making it an excellent match. If the 353 is affordable I'm going to be very tempted to buy one.

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Hmm, Rob, I seem to have an M73 sitting around I havent gotten to use much lately. What are the chances you'll be able to support it? I've gotten a little ways with my VB.net capture program and the sumix api but have run into some issues and now have next to no time to work on it and may not in the near future. I might be able to lend you the camera or sell it to you for a low price or something. If not, I'm still very interested in your project, so please keep us updated on your progress. The elphel 333 also looks like a good option for your program, but it is limited to outputting jpegs over 100BT, but it could be great given a good interface for controling blanking and LUTs.

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Noah Yuan-Vogel

Hmm, Rob, I seem to have an M73 sitting around I havent gotten to use much lately. What are the chances you'll be able to support it?

I already downloaded the API and it looks quite straightforward -- certainly no more difficult than the CameraLink API I've already implemented. I would love to borrow it from you and work on support for it. If I have some success (and I can find some cash) I may be interested in buying it from you. Feel free to e-mail me directly.

The elphel 333 also looks like a good option for your program

I agree, the Elphel camera is very cool, but the 353 sounds nearly perfect, so I will probably wait for that one. Or I guess I could start with the 333 ... well, one thing at a time.

Thanks for your interest!

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Rob Scott

It's basically alpha quality, currently only supporting the SI-1300CL.

The capture software will do 1280x720p 10-bit raw @ 24fps; on my system, this requires two hard drives in tandem. Multiple-drive support is built in; of course, you can use a RAID array or a very fast drive. It's a full-screen "heads-up" UI using DirectX. I'm going to investigate moving to OpenGL to be more portable.

I would suggest supporting both, as direct X is probably goign to give the best hardware support options.

What computer hardware are you using to achieve this? From what you are saying, you don't have camera to test it.

The conversion software will process the raw images into 16-bit TIFF. Eventually it will support OpenEXR and DNG (for processing elsewhere). It is currently command-line only.

Yes there are a number of options. If you approached Steve from SI you might be able to access some of their stuff and their workflow, if you approach David from cineform, the cineform Raw is available for license. The codec being developed here is probably a very good idea (not to mention previous work by Juan and Jason under different projects).

[Edit] One of the issues going forward is that nobody I know of has the SI-1300 and I doubt anyone will go out and buy one just to use this software. Obin was doing something similar (I didn't read the entire thread) and tried the SI-3300 then gave up (as far as I know).

You do not have a camera, what are you doing your testing on? Obin was offering to sell his, maybe there was somebody else to.

The latest advice on getting the thing to run full speed (see my technical thread for more details). Is that Epix (is that the name, I forget, you know the one I mean) latest PCIE one lane capture card has buffering, and will quiet happily continuously record without problems according to them. They claim it has just enough buffering to iron out the problems, but to record to hard disk requires the more advanced software, or to roll your own with developer software.

Speaking to an local distributor of another camera (I think) about their setup and capture software, they informed me that there was a simple trick to getting their software to capture it to continuously without dropped frames or timing difficulties. I forget what my thoughts were on this, he wouldn't say, but I had an idea what it was about.

About main board hardware requirements: Black magic has a Intensity HDMI capture card, and looking at the requirements they mention a number of recommended boards and chip sets, but recommend against any that use an integrated graphics in their chipset (though, I imagine a discrete graphics card will be OK with them) because they find that the graphics access to main memory stuffs up the bandwidth flow. I imagine that a new chipset like the Intel G965 express (would wait for finale drivers and see if should wait for stepping after c-2) possibly could be different though, because it uses dual channel memory, and bandwidth is 12.8GB/s.

I found a number of companies that could do what is required for film recording at significantly cheaper prices than what SI offers, even using Dalsa.

On the other hand, the Elphel is attractive because its' firmware is also open-source, making it an excellent match. If the 353 is affordable I'm going to be very tempted to buy one.

Yes.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Noah Yuan-Vogel

Hmm, Rob, I seem to have an M73 sitting around I havent gotten to use much lately. What are the chances you'll be able to support it? I've gotten a little ways with my VB.net capture program and the sumix api but have run into some issues and now have next to no time to work on it and may not in the near future. I might be able to lend you the camera or sell it to you for a low price or something. If not, I'm still very interested in your project, so please keep us updated on your progress. The elphel 333 also looks like a good option for your program, but it is limited to outputting jpegs over 100BT, but it could be great given a good interface for controling blanking and LUTs.

Noel, could you post a link to what these issues are?


Yes, Rob,

The 333 is good for experimenting with, but is too limited, unless you want to experiment with output grey scale jpegs of the Raw pattern over firewire. Which I am still interested in what results anybody could get out of that, compared to same frame at 75% +. Andrey is doing prototyped 353, you might be able to get a big developer discount for that, as he normally does.

I forgot to mention, the Epix camera card combos are cheap.


To everybody else, I have researched the Jpeg issues, and not all codecs are created equal, for instance the Apple one. That 75% 4:2:2 is the minimum that we should go for (or gray scale of the bayer raw) I think 4:4:4 is above that.

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

I would suggest supporting both, as direct X is probably goign to give the best hardware support options.

Since I already have DirectX support written, that's probably a good idea.

What computer hardware are you using to achieve this? From what you are saying, you don't have camera to test it.

I do have the SI-1300CL, and the software works with it. I don't have a Sumix camera, which would be a far more affordable (though less capable) choice.

... SI workflow ... the cineform Raw is available for license.

It sounds like the Cineform codec is excellent, but my goal is for this project to be entirely open source.

The codec being developed here is probably a very good idea

There is a codec under development? I must have missed that -- where is it?

... run full speed ... Epix latest PCIE one lane capture card has buffering ...

I can get the camera to run full speed up to the limitations of my current system. I have only 32-bit PCI and no PCIe slots, and no funding to upgrade at the moment.

Black magic has a Intensity HDMI capture card...

HDMI is certainly interesting, but probably way beyond the scope of this project for now. Besides, are there any cameras out there which would squirt raw (Bayer) frames through HDMI? Otherwise there isn't really much point.

The 333 is good for experimenting with, but is too limited, unless you want to experiment with output grey scale jpegs of the Raw pattern over firewire.

Yes, it would be cool to experiment with, but the 100 Mbps is just too slow. Firewire? Last time I checked it just had Ethernet. Hmmm ... I wonder if the JPEG FPGA core supports 16-bit grayscale?

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Rob Scott

There is a codec under development? I must have missed that -- where is it?

Last few pages, Zolt, is working on it. You could probably get hold of Juan/the Obin one if you asked nicely. I think as many techniques you can combine the better. I suspect Zolt, however, will surpass the other ones we had with a richer feature set.

HDMI is certainly interesting, but probably way beyond the scope of this project for now. Besides, are there any cameras out there which would squirt raw (Bayer) frames through HDMI? Otherwise there isn't really much point.

I've questioned them carefully on custom modes, and this looks like the case (unless a camera could be made to output a bayer pattern as a monochrome image). It is 4:2:2 with upto 8 to 10 bits (depending on the camera). the card is $249. Now, most of these cameras will not have access to the quality sensors the cameras we are talking about do. I also have a alternative possible high quality HDMI capture in mind.

Yes, it would be cool to experiment with, but the 100 Mbps is just too slow. Firewire? Last time I checked it just had Ethernet. Hmmm ... I wonder if the JPEG FPGA core supports 16-bit grayscale?

Whoops, my bad. I think it does do above 8 bit monochrome Jpeg, but if you consider that 8bit 720p bayer is around 180mb/s+, the photo jpeg option makes sense (but the 333 is very restricted in bandwidth, so the 100mb/s might not be too useful (discussion several pages ago, and probably 4 pages ago). I would go for 10bit packing, if available, and forget the 16bits.

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Last few pages, Zsolt, is working on it.

D'oh ... wasn't paying very close attention there, sorry. Now that I've read back through the thread, that does sound very promising.

Thanks!

[Zsolt Hegyi]

Hello,

Thanks for your question Wayne, I'm currently developing the video editor plugin for the "codec".

But I must ask you that please don't exaggerate: as I stated earlier the encoder will only do the minimum to fit into the 353's disk write speed, nothing more. If that means only 2:1 compression then that will be. I wouldn't even call it a "codec" at all as it will be dumb as possible. And if I have to do a really complex encoder then I won't do it.

Also, I only make a verilog encoder and an importer for a video editor software so the term "codec" isn't appropriate, again. So if Rob is looking for a general purpose codec then this might not be his choice.

And as I still don't have a camera I cannot test the encoder so I don't know that it will produce the desired results or not. Let's wait with this.

Zsolt

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

Big Question is:

Why not giving to Elphel camera a PCMCIA interface?
It shouldnt be so difficult ,there is already Verilog/VHDL code for a PCI interface at Opencores......, just add a device driver and a grain of salt.

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

BTW, is there any way for me to get uncompressed 10 or 12 bit bayer video????

I mean It was impossible for me to get stuff like that to experiment with.

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Zsolt Hegyi

the encoder will only do the minimum to fit into the 353's disk write speed, nothing more. If that means only 2:1 compression then that will be. I wouldn't even call it a "codec" at all as it will be dumb as possible.

Zsolt, that sounds like a very good approach. Will it be open source?

BTW, do you know if the 353 will support writing to disk and streaming Ogg Theora video simultaneously?

Thanks!

[Wayne Morellini]

Zolt, this is sucking time out of my tight schedule, but where did I exaggerate? I've asked you questions in times past, about your claims of much more than 2:1 performance from your experiments, but received very little reply. I merely stated that you could, on your large claims, out do the lossless codec that was worked on for Obin's camera, which was simple and 2:1 or so, the cineform codec is visually lossless (not really lossless, not so much of interest) so is a different matter to which I was talking about (but from your previous claims it sounds like you could have a go at that). The need for only a codec that could , at a minimum (2:1) to squeeze raw through, was originally my proposal anyway.
So, please, I don't need anybody else needlessly coming down on me, I am aware of the limitations and the possibilities, which is usually more than we can say for most.

You and Rob have fun together. As you can see, I am mostly away from this, deliberately.

Thanks for your efforts.

But I must ask you that please don't exaggerate: as I stated earlier the encoder will only do the minimum to fit into the 353's disk write speed, nothing more. If that means only 2:1 compression then that will be.

Also, I only make a verilog encoder and an importer for a video editor software so the term "codec" isn't appropriate, again. So if Rob is looking for a general purpose codec then this might not be his choice.

I imagine he only wants something that will fit the data through and then can transcode to whatever he wants for editing.


External PC units for display etc:

If anybody wants to hook a computer for display/control, then 5 inch UMPC's (mini tablet Window XP computers) have just been shown off for next year, and Apple is hoped to come out with one of these next year. The Intel G965 chipset, with unified shader direct X 10 GPU, I suspect they will sort out the problems of, and the mobile version is expected to come Q1 07. Eventually, I expect this will come to the UMPC. But for anybody wanting a small PC hooked to the unit, without graphic card, the G965 (G versions only) might be well positioned.