View Full Version : 24P Question
Stephen van Vuuren
January 9th, 2005, 03:29 AM
I'm working in Vegas 5 on Pentium 3.2, 2GB RAM and need single stream, fullrez, playback of lossless 1080p 24fps files (native, not HDV).
What is my best bet for playback, hardware, software and/or codec?
January 9th, 2005, 11:40 AM
As you posted your question in the CineForm section is your question for us?
CineForm codecs are visually lossless (you can read what we mean by that here : http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm.) In Connect HD and Aspect HD we do support 1080p playback at HDV resolutions (up to 1440x1080 anamorphic 8bit.) The codec has a progressive mode for improved quality and efficiency -- you don't have to use HDV sources. If you are looking to do film work I would recommend Prospect HD which supports 1920x1080 in 10bit and supports full resolution HDSDI input and output -- this will require a dual processor system.
Read the January issue of Post Magazine for using CineForm Intermediates for film work.
Stephen van Vuuren
January 9th, 2005, 11:50 AM
Yes, it was about the various Cineform options. My project is not film - it's native 1080p at 24fps created in After Effects. Frame size is 1920 X 1080.
I just need to playback it back in lossless codec to be able to accurate see my work.
January 9th, 2005, 06:33 PM
We have yet to release a codec only option for this type of work -- although the CFHD codec would work fine. If you are willing to compromise and use 1440x1080 for your previews you could try the free download of Connect HD -- Connect comes with a VfW codec so you can export using After Effects. Many other codecs like HUFFYUV will be too slow at this resolution.
December 15th, 2005, 08:50 PM
I have material shot with a HD100 in 24P mode. I captured it from the CU-VH1 to Premier Pro; of course, during capturing I cannot see the image as we have discussed before. Then import the clips into a 30P Aspect HD Timeline in Premiere, and when I play it I am able to see it in both, capturing screen and in the CU-VH1 LCD!
So, what is happening? Any pull-down? The motion signature and quality is without a doubt 24P. Any technical explanation of this pleasant behavior (since now I can see it in the LCD spooler)?
December 15th, 2005, 09:36 PM
Sorry you must have missed describing a step. This sentence doesn't make sense to me - "Then import the clips into a 30P Aspect HD Timeline in Premiere, and when I play it I am able to see it in both, capturing screen and in the CU-VH1 LCD!" How can playing on the timeline have anything to do with capture -- they are mutually exclusive.
December 15th, 2005, 09:48 PM
Sorry for the broken explanation:
1. Shot footage with HD100 in 24P mode
2. Captured clips to the computer using the CU-VH1
3. Opened a 30P Aspect HD 3.4 timeline in Premiere Pro 1.5.1
4. Imported the 24P clips into the project (clips properties labeled as 23.976)
5. Exported to a tape using the CU-VH1
6. I was able to reproduce the footage in the LCD of the "spooler" and in a HD monitor through the Component Video Out with a clear, no doubt motion signature of 24P.
Hope this time was clear to you.
December 15th, 2005, 09:51 PM
It has actually converted 24 to 30 with a not so nice pulldown. Why are you running a 30p timeline?
December 15th, 2005, 09:58 PM
Just testing before use for a potencial use in broadcast. I did not notice a "not so nice pulldown"; actually, it preserved the 24P motion signature IMHO. What cuantitative and cualitative parameters do you use to evaluate the visual quality of the type of pulldown automaticaly done here?
Thanks for your input,
April 7th, 2006, 06:55 AM
Still not clear on how to do this AND GET A dvd that the DVD player will recognize as progressive
using PPro2, Encore2, Cineform, and Cinemacraft SP
April 7th, 2006, 07:23 AM
What's not clear? What have you tried, and what problems are you having?
From PP, you'd export a DVD-compliant MPEG-2 (720x480, bitrate of 8000 or less) at a frame rate of 23.976 (or 23.98; you know) and progressive. Encore should then be able to burn that to DVD as a straight 24p file. (Not sure exactly what the settings might be, but I'm sure Help will tell you.)
The player will then add 2:3 pulldown for 60i display on a standard TV, and if it's a progressive-scan player set to display progressively (on a TV which can do that), it'll play it as 24p.
April 12th, 2006, 04:31 PM
So I don't want to choose the option in Vegas to create a 24P DVD Mpeg2 with 2-3 pulldown? It's confusing because those default output template settings in Vegas 6... Also the Magic Bullet Suite manual calls for setting pulldown in After Effects for its 24P output.
So don't do this?
March 27th, 2007, 12:47 AM
Hey guys, I was hoping you could help me with this problem...I need to get solid 24 progressive frames out of my shooting with the fx1 with no studder or "ghosting", etc. I know that in cineframe 24 frames...with fast motion, you get that blur that is associated with it...
So I went ahead and have been shooting my films with no cineframe, just native 60i (also using redrock's M2 adapter and nikon lenses). So the video is very fast while shooting...anyhow, when I go to capture my footage in Aspect HD, I select remove CF24 pulldown as that gives me 24p. When I view my footage though, I still have some of that ghosting issues and it doesnt look very fluid.
I input this footage into a Cineform Project file in Premiere pro 1.5.1 (24p project file). I still get that ghosting which I figured would be gone...but when I take frame blending off, it goes away...however the video doesnt feel fluid anymore, it more like jumps.
What is the best way of shooting with the FX1 then converting with Cineform HD to get 24p and have my video very fluid with no type of ghosting or anything...
Any help would be greatly appreciated and I thank you all in advance.
March 27th, 2007, 01:59 AM
If you want 24p for film out then you need to shoot 60i and have it done professionally. If you just want 24p because you heard that it looks better, it doesn't, then shoot 24f and use Cineform to capture it as 24p.
Why do you want 24p instead of 30p?
March 27th, 2007, 03:59 AM
Well ive done stuff in 24p which does look decent...but I will take your word for it....do you think that 30p is better for the cinematic look as well as motion? If so i'll give it a try, ive already shot footage in 60i, so what is the easiest way to put that to 30p using Cineform? ive never done that conversion before...
Anymore info on this would be of great help.
March 27th, 2007, 07:27 AM
There is a lot more to the cinematic look when shooting video than just the progressive footage at a lower frame rate.
However, you can shoot 24f and capture with Aspect HD and get great results. But if you want film out then the people who do that are better off using 60i since that is more normal for them.
If you already have 60i and you just want to deinterlace the footage, you can do that with DVFilm Maker ( http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm ) or After Effects or even just choose to deinterlace right inside Premiere Pro.
March 27th, 2007, 10:51 PM
Hey Steve, thanks for the info...
I do have a question for you though, all info thus far kind of thrown aside...
My goal is to achieve a clear image and fluid motion...but not fast motion that you see on regular video...more of that surreal motion that tends to be more on films...regardless of frame rate, this is what im trying to achieve. So in your best opinion and knowledge, what would you suggest in filming with my fx1 to achieve a clear image (no ghosting, or interlaced lines) and very fluid motion...but not too fast of motion to the point where it looks like video.
Thanks Steve, and I appreciate the comments so far, they've been helpful and im going to give the regular 60i thing a try with de-interlacing and see what happens.
March 28th, 2007, 07:01 AM
here's the workflows and results I've tried with the z1/fx1....
CF24..... to juddery..... loss in res.
CF30.... good film look studder..... slight loss in res.
60i > nattress..... verygood film look.... very slight loss in res
60i > -40 speed > +60 speed > deinterlace/24 export ..... slight loss in rez.... very good film look.
cf30 is the quickest to final..... time is money right?
60i > nattress is the best results..... but times hours of rendering.
March 28th, 2007, 10:34 AM
I have not really experimented with it much, but if you try shooting in 24f and capturing with Aspect HD as 24p, you might be happy with the results. Give it a try.
March 28th, 2007, 10:50 AM
In either CF24 or CF30 modes you have to be careful with the FX1 - It's best to set your shutter at 1/60 unless you're going for a "strobing" effect in the first place.
You also have to be extremely careful with your camera motion. Any rapid camera motion will result in a very strobed image - not because of poor motion estimation or some wonky setting, but because the depth of field is so deep on the FX1 that everything stays in relative focus.
If you follow a 1/60th shutter and aren't too wild with your camera movement, people will have a very difficult time differentiating between CF24 and true 24p.
CF30 is more forgiving than CF24 for three reasons:
1) You have 6 more frames per second.
2) The 1/60th is a longer relative exposure per frame.
3) The motion between frames has an smooth cadence.
If you want to save time, produce a 24p output, have a frame-accurate edit, and don't want to buy another camera (there are a lot more 24p options now than when the FX1 came out), I would recommend using CF24 and AspectHD to do a pull-down removal on capture.
March 28th, 2007, 04:14 PM
I shot 3 previous films on 24f and removed pulldown with cineform...which the results were pretty good, I kept shutter at 1/60 and I was very much pleased with the performance with still shots and not much motion, but I still must say that with motion, even slight as it might have been, it just didnt do the job...
And Chris...I havent really heard of nattress, is that similiar to Cineform to convert 60i to to a progress format, or could you ellabortae on this for me, because I dont mind spending hours rending...I seem to do that now with 3d animation and effects on film...so I wouldnt mind looking into this option.
August 4th, 2007, 07:46 AM
If I use aspect hd to extract the true 24 frames from my hv20, will the audio that was captured in the 60i stream be out of sync with the picture after conversion?
August 4th, 2007, 09:08 AM
No, audio is in sync as it still plays at 48k samples per second. The conversion from 60i to 24p does change the video playback rate.
August 8th, 2007, 07:06 PM
When I capture using cineform neo hdv there is a setting for the pulldown using 24p, however, does this setting work with 24pa which requires a 2332 pulldown, or am I reading this wrong. I am using a HVR V1 and Vegas 7
August 9th, 2007, 08:54 AM
NEO can handle either 2323 or 2332 pulldown automatically. On a technical side the Sony V1U "24pa" is not 2332 -- all confusing, the main point it is it all works in NEO.
August 9th, 2007, 01:03 PM
Yes it is confusing depending on which forum and who is answering, Just wondering on the V1 setting 24pa, I didn't notice any difference when capturing thru neo hdv. I often wonder sometimes if we all try to get too technical on all this stuff. I want to know as much as possible but sometime its gets out of hand.
August 9th, 2007, 01:26 PM
The Sony 24pa mode simply add a frame more frames on the end of each clip to help some "native" m2t edits -- has zero impact on CineForm.
September 18th, 2007, 04:33 PM
If I've already captured my V1U and HV20 footage with Cineform using the pulldown, and I'm rendering down to DV via Sony Vegas and using the template for DVDA 24P, would I use template for 23.976 AND pulldown again or just 23.976 and uncheck the pulldown box?
September 18th, 2007, 04:47 PM
I would say no pulldown. Vegas wizzes should know more. Try both and observe the results.
September 18th, 2007, 07:09 PM
DVDA 24p template WITHOUT pulldown again appears the way to go. Thanks much for the timely response.