Hi folks,
I was just reading about the new Quicktime HD editing codec "Pixlet" that has been announced by Apple to come out wih Panther later this year. I was wondering if anyone in the know would like to speculate if this will enable editing of HDV footage from the JVC HD cam in FCP, and how the workflow would go? It seems like you'd have to first convert the HDV footage to the Pixlet codec. Does anyone know if native editing of the HDV format on the Mac will come at the same time as Pixlet?

Many thanks

Like Paul I am wondering if the "Pixlet" codec will allow native HDV editing on the Macintosh. It has been a couple of months since Paul posted this thread and if anyone out there has new information on this topic I'd love to hear it.


Brad

I'm not sure why yet another codec would aid FCP editing?

Unless transcoding were done during capture there would still be a conversion stage.

And, would Pixlet support real-time editing? If not, it would be a step backward.

I agree with Steve on that. But if Pixlet is indeed a fully supported and optimised QT plugin it might help nevertheless to work with HD material without a very fast workstation.

Can anyone confirm that FCP4 will indeed have the ability to edit HD footage from these JVC cams?

And can anyone speculate as to how much "longer" the Mac will need to render out footage when compared to DV? 2X 3X ????

Pixelet codec will be a playback codec only initially, it will not be a codec you can capture to.

It's not going to change our world here with the HDV format.

Cheers

DBK

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nunez : Can anyone confirm that FCP4 will indeed have the ability to edit HD footage from these JVC cams?

With my 4HDV package, FCP has HAS the ability now.

I expect Apple to add MPEG-2 TS support into FCP V5. It's a major job as they have told me they will not release a product that operates any differently than does FCP with DV.

That, as we are all learning is not simple.

Thankfully, the G5 gives them more compute cycles. And by next summer G5s will have fully replaced G4s so they could feel free to make G5 the minimum HDV editing machine. The new iMac has 160GB, so by next summer that could be 320GB.

Of course companies could add HDV support to work WITH their HD PCI boards. Then you would rent an HDCAM deck just to output the timeline via SDI-HD.

Good point Steve. I think outputting to an HDCAM deck could be a very important step in this process if one is going to have their work seen outside of their own house. People have constantly complained about the 30p not being a good frame rate for transfering to film, but I feel that the real delivery format for anything shot with this camera is probably going to be HDCAM or some other kind of HD tape format so the film can be shown digitally.

Steve- quick question: with your package- could someone theoretically edit a HD project in FCP 3/4 and when done export back out to tape in HD?

Also, you may be familiar with direct to hd (hard drive/disk) devices- because they record directly from the firewire port to hd's- could this be a way to record HD content directly to disk in a native QT/avi etc format- or is this not possible- anyone try recording to a Firestore while shooting in HD mode- what happens to the resulting captures????

(Steve I'd be willing to go to your place in NYC and bring over the Firestore and check this out- in case you don't know the results)

Thanks Steve.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nunez : Steve- quick question: with your package- could someone theoretically edit a HD project in FCP 3/4 and when done export back out to tape in HD? -->>>

Out to which HD tape format?

Steve- sorry for not elaborating on what type- I meant can you edit the HD video in FCP and export back out to tape as an HD video to be viewed from the camcorder to a tv set?

Side Note:
Also to make matters more confusing- what could we expect if we were to record the HD video onto a set-top DVD recorder that has firewire inputs? Could we expect to get HD video onto a DVD-R this way?
Panasonic has a few set-top DVD-R recorders that have Firewire inputs to record digital video directly to DVD-R........just wondering what would happen if the JVC were outputting HD video while the DVD-R recorder were recording- any comments?? Theories?

Steve,

no that will not work. The set-top DVD recorders are expecting DV video on Firewire not MPEG2-TS data. It will be completely ignored. However, you could edit in HD and export in DV to use an external recorder if needed. The only issue is I don't think any of the set-top recorders correctly handle panamorphic 16:9 video.

David is most probably right. maybe there could be a firmware update to enable mpeg2TS but it is unlikely for the moment. As for anamorphic DV, Sony might support that, they have a reputation to be very compatible but it remains to be seen.

Just when we get to the pinnacle of DV technology and real time processing abilities of top line NLE's...we get teased with HD camcorders and a whole slew of compatibilty problems as well as standards conflicts (manufacturer wise)...and now of course we can't edit HD content in real time as the NLE's and desktop hardware have to play catch up to this technology....of course in 2 years when FCP5/6 and pc NLE's can handle HD just perfectly- they'll come out with 3D HD cams.......

...someone please tell me Canon is coming out with an HD camcorder- the time has come now!!!!

(anyone have any info on any future HD cams at all????)

I'm right there on the edge to get this JVC but something's telling me Canon is gonna come out with an HD cam with a better feature set- they seem to set high standards within prosumer video equip at modest prices...

....I might just bite the bullet and get the JVC and Steve Mullens program to edit the footage within FCP3......

....technology waits for NO one!!!!!

We live in exciting times- have fun guys!!!!

Hey quick ? to you JVC HD owners- what's the current storage needs for HD content- an hour of DV material is 13GB- what's an hour of HD content consume?

Right now the only HD media is D-VHS and HDV tape--other than HDCAM and DVCPRO100.

However, we are all waiting on Heuris for an HD Transport Stream encoder. Please call/email and bug them for their $600 encoder. Paul and I both know it should have been released by now! They've got to be nuts to think folks will pay $5000. It's also time for folks to call BitVice and have them release an HD TS encoder.


HOWEVER

You can use a Mac or PC as a playback device. My 4HDV will let you encode HD for Mac/PC playback. It really looks good on a widescreen Mac! And Macs/PCs can feed a projector. Frankly, I've been enjoying viewing on a Mac with a Cinema Display.

AND

Sony has an HD DVD recorder now on sale in Japan and I've got a pix of JVCs HD DVD in my 4HDV Production Guide. So they are coming. If you've got $4000 you could order the Sony from Japan. But you still need a Transport Stream encoder!

CALL/EMAIL HEURIS!

> I'm right there on the edge to get this JVC but something's telling
> me Canon is gonna come out with an HD cam with a better feature
> set- they seem to set high standards within prosumer video equip
> at modest prices...

Oh don't worry about that. ALL of our favorite manufacterers will be offering HDV (or HDVC or whatever it will be called) as soon as they have sold as much SD DV equipments as they can possibly sell. I think this is more or less as soon as we all stop buying new equipment while waiting for the HD stuff. Since this is happening already, my guess is that before six months we will have HD products in the MiniDV price range which will begin to replace current MiniDV offerings. Especially considering that in many cases all they have to do is rewrite the camera's firmware. Many current MiniDV camcorders already have megapixel CCD arrays and powerfull onboard processing, so it basically becomes a programmer's proplem to teach the camera to encode MPEG. It will be VERY fast.

I'm not so sure about that. As you said, the manufacturers will continue to milk the DV market as long as it's commercially viable, and Panasonic certainly aren't going to kill the Varicam milk cow by offering a version of the DVX100 cam with 24p HDV and professional controls any time soon, at least not one that's not partially crippled. Nothing happens by accident in this biz. Having used the HD1OU for a bit I have no doubt that the HDV format is a complete DV killer and competitor to the high end HD cams, IF implemented properly. (Note that I didn't say that the quality is the same!) I have no doubt that the HD1OU was deliberately crippled in many ways, of course you'll never hear that from the manufacturers. It's a great deal more than a software change for the existing megapixel cams to be made to do HDV, you need 16:9 imagers and MPEG2 compression chips for a start. I think they'll drag out the transition as long as possible, but there's no doubt it's coming. I wouldn't hold your breath for a massive and sudden influx of HDV cams, I hope it will happen, but it won't until everyone out there with a current DV cam realizes that HDV is a WAY superior format, or I should say, has the POTENTIAL of being so, which will take time.

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : I have no doubt that the HD1OU was deliberately crippled in many ways, of course you'll never hear that from the manufacturers. -->>>

The CONSUMER group took an off-the-shelf MPEG-2 encoder from NTT and grafted into a JVC consumer camcorder.

It has every typical JVC consumer camcorder feature. It did not need to be crippled. It was never intended to be other than a DV+HDV camcorder.

From there it became a prosumer product that was uncrippled to a large degree by efforts in the USA. What's not clear was whether factory politics inn Japan resisted efforts to make it better--or there was no time to do it once Japan shoved it into the USA. (Or no budget!)

> you need 16:9 imagers and MPEG2 compression chips for a start.

My PDX10 does native 16:9 and some pretty impressive real-time image resampling, not to mention simultanous multiresolution output to DV and USB and at least MPEG1 compression, so I guess MPEG2 at 720p is not a long way to go for the onboard circuitry. You are right though, perhaps they need to change the ROM and and ad a stronger DSP... but that is really not expensive. If they have not done it yet it's because of the decision to not do it, not because of a technological problem. I think it is important that we all realize that and make it very clear publically so they don't fool us around.

> I think they'll drag out the transition as long as possible, but there's
> no doubt it's coming. I wouldn't hold your breath for a massive
> and sudden influx of HDV cams, I hope it will happen, but it
> won't until everyone out there with a current DV cam realizes
> that HDV is a WAY superior format, or I should say, has the
> POTENTIAL of being so, which will take time.

Well it seems to be happening. Have WE not realized it? :D

Peace,

--
i.

In most cases, the fact that you will or not buy the HD10 is based on two compromises possibilities: I want HD capabilities at an affordable price right now by any means or I want HD capabilities at an affordable price but I am willing to wait for better machines. It is all a question of perspective but remember, the future is now and it IS the HD10, when the others will go out in the market, the pioneers will have already paved the way with this camera. It has begun, you either trip on the hard wave or wait for some other less tricky ones.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : > you need 16:9 imagers and MPEG2 compression chips for a start.

My PDX10 does native 16:9 and some pretty impressive real-time image resampling, not to mention simultanous multiresolution output to DV and USB and at least MPEG1 compression, so I guess MPEG2 at 720p is not a long way to go for the onboard circuitry. You are right though, perhaps they need to change the ROM and and ad a stronger DSP... but that is really not expensive. -->>>

Clearly have no grasp of either MPEG-2 nor HD technology. That's right "change the ROM and ad (sic) a stronger DSP." And you have a Engineering degree in what? Why don't you tell Sony how to fix the terrible vertical smear in your PDX10. And, maybe you can engineer the light sensitivity down to 2 lux like the PD150.

> And you have a Engineering degree in what?

I am a sound engineer, and even though I have worked with Terran on Media Cleaner and have been a beta tester for QuickTime codecs and other stuff, I have not made any claims about being able to program the DSP. Perhaps that is something you can do. Anyway, I write from a user's point of view. It is us, the users, who actually drive the market by choosing the tools we want. Nothing wrong with talking about what we want and speculating about how it will be done. I do think it will be done very soon. For your benefit and mine, we will be able to choose among several manufacterers for HDV, just like we do now for DV.

And since you mention it, I paid a lot less for the PDX10 than I would have had to pay for the DVX100, and got native 16:9 too, so I happily deal with the vertical smear and make sure there is enough light, knowing that I saved some cash for my next camera ;-)

Peace,

--
i.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : > And you have a Engineering degree in what?

I am a sound engineer, and even though I have worked with Terran on Media Cleaner and have been a beta tester for QuickTime codecs and other stuff -->>>

I ment a real graduate Electronics Engineer from a University. Since you aren't one, how do you presume to say HOW electronics can be improved?

I've got no problem with anyone saying they want improvements, but when they say HOW it should be done, %$^%$^$!

And, if you think a megapixel PDX10 is as good as a DVX100? You just bought a cheaper camera. No problem.

Steve I have done some reading around. Of course you are right, the feat of encoding MPEG2 in realtime, even at the not-so-high resolution and 30 fps, is quite an accomplishmentr by JVC, so to make a camera like the PDX10 do something similar Sony would have to toss in one of those NTT DSP's, not just reprogram the camera, effectively building a totally new camera in the process. BTW I read your articles on NAB 2003 and the HD10 and found them very informative. Thanks for being around and helpung us newbies get it.