View Full Version : What's Apple doing? (Answer: I don't know)


Robert Lane
October 9th, 2008, 10:47 AM
Ever since Adobe announced and since released the CS4 line of software I've received several emails asking if I knew what Apple was doing to update the now long-in-tooth Studio 2 apps. The simple answer: I don't know, and nobody outside Apple's walls of insiders and developers will say publicly as has always been the case. Apple's history of total lockdown on leaks has been stellar and that's not changing anytime soon.

I will say this, that the past 6 months has been especially unnerving to see the apparent lack of progress in the Final Cut Studio apps. Steve Jobs has and continues to be tunnel-visioned by the iPhone (and why not, it's hugely popular and profitable) and development of the pro apps has all but come to a near-halt. The only "major" update was a small service release recently that resolved a few minor issues but added little functionality. At issue are things such as:

- Adobe has had native Blu-Ray support (albeit basic) in Encore - now going on it's second iteration. All we have from Apple is rumor that BR is "coming soon" possibly with OSX 10.6 - but that may not appear until years-end or first of next year.

- There continues to be PC-only apps and hardware specific to the commercial film & video industry that have not been ported-over to the Mac; many of those manufacturers have said often that they'd love to create a Mac-version but get little to no support or interest from Apple in developing the API's and code required to make it work. A perfect example is Scenarist, the top-end Blu-Ray authoring app; several hardware-based MPEG-2 encoders are strictly PC-based with no chance of being ported to the Mac.

- Final Cut Media Manager (or "media mangler" as many refer to it) has been overdue for a serious overhaul for more than 2 years. Both Avid and even Adobe have superior built-in management schemes but FCS2 users are forced to use either 3rd-party software or completely manual methodologies to keep things properly organized and tracked. This is especially evident when dealing with render files from older projects. This one characteristic alone has kept a few editors I know of away from FCS.

- Unlike PC editors the Apple side still lacks a true, hardware-accelerated version of FCS. This would obviously be much more costly than the current iteration of the software but it would address a part of the market that currently stays PC-only because these post-houses can't give up the benefits of acceleration.

- PC manufacturers are and have been offering far more robust and well configured hardware options for both laptop and desktop machines with greater flexibility in configurations. Lenovo for example recently released a editors-dream laptop with (2) internal SATA HDD's and a color-gamma correct LCD specifically for video editors. Nothing Apple has in it's current lineup can match that laptop at any price.

- And my personal pan, is that for over 3 years now FCP still does not have native drag-n-drop P2HD support whereas almost *every* other pro-editing app - PC or Mac - does. (I don't think Vegas does without a 3rd-party plug-in). In fact, Apple gave the code to it's competitors for that Quicktime codec but hasn't introduced it into it's own software yet. Really weird.

Currently what FCS2 does, and does quite well, is incorporate all of the best tools required to start and finish (literally finish in color) any job whether it's tele-cine, video or any combination thereof. Being on the Mac platform means it's supremely stable and to date still is 99.99% free of viruses and spyware (technically there is some OSX viruses but they are so rarely seen it's a non-event).

But the sad fact is that PC manufacturers and even Mac-app competitors have been overshadowing Apple's own pro-app offerings for more than 2 years now. And the "I'm a Mac..." TV ads? Yes, they're really funny and mostly accurate but only from a consumer-level perspective. When it comes to professional applications and the associated hardware Apple is almost 3 years behind the PC and it's getting painful.

So, what's Apple doing to play catch-up to it's PC and Mac-competitive rivals? I haven't a clue, but if they don't re-energize themselves into updating and boosting their pro offerings soon I'm afraid you'll start seeing a slow migration away from FCS. That would be tragic.

Benjamin Hill
October 9th, 2008, 11:15 AM
Vote with your dollar.

Richard Alvarez
October 9th, 2008, 12:30 PM
Well, to be fair AVID is a cross-platform NLE, that ship with copies for MAC and PC when you buy it, and they've had accelerators, and MOJO and Nitris, Adrenaline hardware for MAC for years. But people bitched and moaned cause it cost more than FCP all alone... so saying that its not available isn't strictly true. If you use AVID you can do it with the extra hardware and MAC platform, just expect to pay the price.

Jerry Matese
October 9th, 2008, 06:10 PM
There are many other considerations. While a MAC Pro costs more than a comparible PC. Networking in a true HD workflow typically costs less with XSAN than mixing PC based fibre channel systems on the PC

Jerry Matese
October 9th, 2008, 06:40 PM
I'm sure we will see some significant improvements at or before NAB2009. I also have discussed developments with a few companies like AJA that are developing capture cards that include REAL hardware acceleration from companies like AMBRIC that will speed encoding and decoding of complex codecs dramaticly. Thes cards/chips will also reduce rendering and playback as they will be directly addressable by FCP so your MAC does not need to decode/encode these files any longer. They may also speed scaling and certain other effects as well, bringing the platform ahead of the competion in terms of productivty. Similar to how Matrox AXIO speeds PP on a PC but on a MAC with FCP. AXIO realy shines with MPEG based workflows but falls a bit short in other formats. The MAC is more agile in others. It will be very ineresting to see how this all plays out.

Christopher Drews
October 9th, 2008, 07:01 PM
Robert - I like your thoughts about Media Manager. It really is a nightmare but even on the Avid side, the Media Tool isn't that much better - most professional editors get a third party application called "Media Mover" to sort and delete pesky media.

If Apple revamps this, there should be a function of scanning an entire project - listing every render and media file, generating a list for migration / deletion / reconnection.

The bane for me on the media management side of FCP is opening a project with nested sequences and being unable to determine which files are offline. Literally, they appear as un-selectable when you load the FCP project.

As for Blu-Ray - Apple placed a bet on the wrong horse (HD-DVD). I don't think their timeframe for implementing BDR is necessarily slow. It will be there in the next generation and if you can't wait - you can cheat now to make BDR on MAC.

As for Hardware, its not realistic for apple to create a break-out box. They've got third party people (Avid, AJA, BlackMagic) who are way ahead of the game, developing for their architecture. Already, AJA has taken a tremendous amount of load of FCP in it's hardware encoding of Pro-Res with IoHD. This is essentially the breakout box you are talking about.

Even if Apple doesn't implement needed changes (ie - you can still edit HDV on a G4) they'll still be edging out Avid because of the Studio package's value - so I guess I don't see them as "boneheaded".

Also, lets look at SAS - it was implemented almost concurrently with the PC guys. If SAS were Blu-Ray, it'd already be an option in the Mac Pro's (from SAS development date).

I guess I don't see the urgency with the hardware. My vote would be for 64 bit FCP, fixing the media management errors, updating color (sheesh - great 1.0.2 but it needs some love) and working with integrating other codecs within the code (seriously - put flip4mac out of business and integrate WMV, MPEG, AVI, in FCP).

Good Topic Robert.

-C

Pete Cofrancesco
October 10th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Christopher Drews is spot on. Wish they improve media manager. Blueray will most likely be in the next version, after all they need to give you a reason to upgrade. I'm not in a rush for Blueray, not enough ppl have it to make it viable for now. Apple makes most of its money off its proprietary hardware so you'll always be handcuffed. Annoying but nothing new about that.

Matt Davis
October 13th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Nothing Apple has in it's current lineup can match that laptop at any price.

At the time of writing, I'm about 24 hours away from the Apple event, so I won't comment on that.

Apple may have backed the wrong horse in HD-DVD, but have since recapitulated in stating that the future may not be with shipping bits of plastic per se, but in pushing file based HD. I'm not so sure - I like my DVDs (no fear of DRM plugs being pulled), and BD-ROM has been very useful. But whatever.

Both FCP and Avid have to juggle advancement with precedent. And both are getting on a bit. FCP's built on a curious mix of PC and Mac legacy code, and as such, contains much that is bogglingly stupid (like font handling, media management). There is so much to be fixed that really it should have a total re-write. But that introduces so much toe-curling danger one wonders how long Apple will hold off the inevitable.

I just want the stuff that's broken FIXED first. It's all Guy Kawazaki's fault. "Just ship it! Perfect it later!" - well, guys, "later" was a few years ago and there's lots to fix.

Don't get me wrong - it's not an FCP vs AVID thing - it's a Professional Software thing.

Robert Lane
October 13th, 2008, 08:53 AM
Well stated, Matt.

And to those who ignorantly think Apple and other companies don't actually pay attention to forums such as this for feedback, you're dead wrong. They do, and in fact Apple went out of their way earlier this year to dispel a few rumours that were floating around forums such as this. In fact, web-based non-solicited feedback (such as forums and blogs) have become such a new standard that every large corporation has a small team of "web-watchers" who do nothing but scour the web for anything with their company's product or service reviews.

Let's hope the past 2 years of globally published wishful thinking and outright rants have finally made it to those who assign developers the task of rethinking the pro apps design. Adobe has been hard at work and their CS4 versions show it.

It's past time to pick up the pace, Apple.

Louis Maddalena
October 13th, 2008, 09:09 AM
One thing I desperately need is for them to update color. Every time I want to use Color I have to unplug monitors because color can not run on a system with more than 2 monitors attached. No, them being off doesn't count... UNPLUGGED!

I also would like to see a complete move into 64 bit, since I have a mess load of ram, and 64bit processors. I would also like a rewrite of the multicore code to address 8 cores. Right now the 4 core limit is not allowing me to access all of my power I have in my system, which is annoying because why did I buy this system in the first place... final cut.

Boyd Ostroff
October 13th, 2008, 12:33 PM
Apple may have backed the wrong horse in HD-DVD, but have since recapitulated in stating that the future may not be with shipping bits of

Honestly, I never paid a lot of attention to who backed what in the past... although I just got a Blu-ray player for my HDTV and I love it. But my recollection was that Apple was one of the original backers of Blu-ray back in 2005:

Slashdot | Apple Backs Blu-ray (http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/03/11/1217236.shtml?tid=174&tid=1)
Apple backs Blu-ray ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/10/apple_backs_blu-ray/)

I realize they haven't put drives in their computers yet, but wasn't aware they ever joined the HD-DVD camp. Did I miss something?

Pete Cofrancesco
October 13th, 2008, 04:33 PM
I think what he is referring to is that in DVD studio pro and Compressor, there is only HD-DVD. This means Apple must of backed HD-DVD.


As for FCP improvements I wish they could borrow Adobe Photoshop's tabbed panel interface. There is something I find difficult working with all their windows. Especially in compressor, I'd rather have two windows one to select source and destination and another window for the compression settings. I find I have to do a lot a clicking just to do a simple task, don't like how batch is another application when it should be just be compressor. In fcp I hate how view tab works for effects and text. If you accidentally double click on a clip you're already working on then the settings tab gets hidden by the view tab.

Steve Oakley
October 13th, 2008, 11:12 PM
before all the big stuff, apple needs to fix the simple bus like premult with black render errors that are all over FPC. its horrid. try dissolving a white title with a blur for a prefect example. then there is the abominination called motion.

now that CS4 is out, all I can say it adobe is about to send apple packing. dynamic link with AE is way beyond FCP / motion. motion, however cool, is still a toy compared to AE, combustion, flame, nuke... and even shake.

Robert Lane
October 15th, 2008, 06:35 PM
I'm flabbergasted by the amount of quizzical and even angry emails I've gotten just today about some of the not-so-great news from Apple. Complaints about everything from lack of BR options to *only* glossy screens on laptops (are you kidding me?!) to FW400 disappearing across the board, and no mention of FCS3. Really?

Honestly, I really expected that on the laptop side they'd have taken serious cues from the Lenovo laptop with dual-drives, color-correct screen etc. I also expected that BR being supported in 10.6 would get mentioned and that the pro apps would see some resurgence of updates. Nada.

I hate to say it but I think Apple has just officially launched their own slow exodus of professionals away from it's apps and hardware, especially potential new users who haven't decided on "Mac vs. PC".

Considering the competition (hardware and software), the economic status globally and Apple's continuing ignorance of pro-user needs and requests Apple seems to be moving further and further away from being the innovative pack-leader to being blinded by it's own ego-centric "i-Attitude".

As someone said in a previous post: Vote with your dollars - or lack thereof.

Meryem Ersoz
October 15th, 2008, 06:51 PM
Vote with your dollar.

Well, Adobe just released CS4 today, and I'm goin' that-a-way. I guess Apple can kiss my upgrade money goodbye. Too bad...their professional apps support has been abysmal, and the hardware is taking a turn for the worse, too.

Mathieu Ghekiere
October 16th, 2008, 01:12 AM
Robert,

I agree. When people used to be saying that Apple was overpriced, I told them that it wasn't really true. And I do believe that. But now?

You have to buy a 2000 dollar Macbook Pro just to get Firewire?
Macbook PRO's, who have glossy screens? No Firewire 400 anymore also, only one Firewire bus?

The new ACD... only glossy? No firewire ports in them? Only compatible with their new laptops?

The new display port... Okay it saves space, (again, form over function), but you have to buy all these new expensive adapters, just to connect your laptop to another screen!

I told my brother, who saught a normal Macbook, to wait for the update... Guess what? Now I'm going to shop with hem to buy a previous generation Macbook Pro. I'm not even talking about the new Macbook Prices. 1200 euros for a 13" laptop without firewire even? 2.0 ghz? Really, Apple?

I've never been so dissapointed in Apple as now. The Macbook PRO isn't officially pro anymore... It's for the more rich consumer. I also see this of a very defining point of Apple saying: "sc*w you" to all professional and prosumers out there.

Robert Lane
October 16th, 2008, 08:32 AM
All good points, Mathieu. I can honestly say I've never heard of or seen so many complaints across the board about Apple's offerings after a conference than now.

Myself and others have publicly complained that Steve Job's had become blindsided by the success of iTunes and now iPhone and that his focus was moving too far away from it's professional customer base. It would seem that Job's may have finally decided that there's so much money to be made with the general consumer "i" products that it's no longer profitable to be concerned with pro needs. Certainly none of the new hardware offerings make any sense, both from a usability and a cost-effectiveness standpoint.

Apple historically has taken the "do it the Apple way" mentality with it's product offerings by eliminating features or creating non-modify-able presets, arrogantly telling the customer "this way is best". I'll never forget the huge uproar that went out when Apple did away with the PCMCIA slot, P2 users were up in arms and PC guys were laughing their collective arses off. I defended the choice then but there's no defense for Apple's choices now.

One statement that really makes my head spin about Apple's stated future plans, is that Jobs said going towards Blu-Ray wasn't cost effective, that licensing from Sony was too expensive. Really? So Adobe can pull it off but Apple can't? Gee, that sounds more like a public announcement of weakness rather than a savvy business decision.

I think Apple's distaste for Blu-Ray has more to do with the fact that they want to push everyone into web-based delivery of HD content (iTunes) which they make money on rather than optical media which they don't. Yet another example of Apple arrogance telling it's customers what *Apple* wants rather than giving their customers what they're asking for.

As I always say, pick the best tool for the job. Going forward it would appear that Apple's products appear less and less like the best tool - and certainly not at Apple prices.

Robert Rogoz
October 16th, 2008, 02:22 PM
I think Apple's distaste for Blu-Ray has more to do with the fact that they want to push everyone into web-based delivery of HD content (iTunes) which they make money on rather than optical media which they don't. Yet another example of Apple arrogance telling it's customers what *Apple* wants rather than giving their customers what they're asking for.
.
Lets hope some of the Apple people are lurking around sites like this one. Let's hope they will listen as well.
I wanted to address one point not mentioned. A dual BR disc contains 50 Gig of information. Try to download that! So what quality are we talking about through iTunes? not Hi-Def. Also don't forget the biggest cable internet provider (Comcast) has quite low limits on monthly volume of downloads.
No firewire on Macbook, another complete fumble! I think we see Apple going main stream and the quality, innovation and performance level are going down. No wonder Apple stock suffered a major blow last month.

Michael Wisniewski
October 16th, 2008, 02:36 PM
Yes the new Macbook Pro is "consumerish". But it kinda makes sense - this is a brand new platform that they will be using for the next 3-5 years. So why not simplify the first few offerings and let the customers tell them what to add back in. Hasn't this been the Apple's behaviour for years? Just push it out the door, and fix it later? It's just a computer for godsake, they can always create a new model with more features. And I'm wondering if they haven't factored that philosophy in with their new manufacturing process. Betcha their time to market is now extremely quick. And since their forte is design, that's a pretty big competitive advantage. So I'm prepared to give Apple the benefit of the doubt (and I'm a PC). They have huge gaps in their line up right now - they know it - and they know they can't do anything about it until Intel releases their new chips in 2009.

With that in mind, this Oct 2007 release kinda looks like a good way test the new computing platform with consumers before MacWorld 2009. That's where they have to get it right, but I'm sure they know this as well. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if we see the current 15" Macbook Pro drop down to Macbook status, as they introduce more advanced computers to fill in the higher end gaps.

Of course if they don't "bring it" to MacWorld 2009. Well ...

Boyd Ostroff
October 16th, 2008, 03:56 PM
Myself and others have publicly complained that Steve Job's had become blindsided by the success of iTunes and now iPhone and that his focus was moving too far away from it's professional customer base. It would seem that Job's may have finally decided that there's so much money to be made with the general consumer "i" products that it's no longer profitable to be concerned with pro needs.

I'm not ready to go quite that far, but agree there's a degree of truth in this. They are clearly concentrating on the iPhone and (like it or not) it's quite an impressive acheivement from both a technological and marketing standpoint. I'm still very content with my Macs, but clearly have much less demanding needs than yours.

As for Apple's stock falling recently, well I think it got rather overheated and was due to correct. Of course, all bets are off with the current economy.

And the following chart might provide some insight as to why Dell sells their laptops for less than Apple: Quotes for AAPL - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=2y&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=dell)

William Hohauser
October 16th, 2008, 04:01 PM
Economics wise, how many people really need FireWire on their MacBooks? How many consumer cameras now only have USB2? How many external hard drives are now USB2 only? Who buys the majority of MacBooks? Professionals? Did Apple make the right choice? I don't have the statistics, do you? They came out with something called the MacBook Pro for a reason and it's not just to steal your money.

My 15" MacBookPro (one of the first models) only had one FireWire port. Did they ever have more? I bought a cheap express card and now have three when I need them. No big deal.

Apple isn't supporting Blu-Ray right now for whatever eccentric (or reasonable) reason. Does that mean you can't work with Blu-Ray. Of course not. Buy Toast and a burner. You can make Blu-Ray compatible H.264 HD files in Compressor already. That's a lot cheaper then a new laptop that has few substantial improvements in speed.

Has Apple ever put an SDI port in their computers for the people who work with DigiBeta or other high end digital video? No and they never will. But as professionals we can acquire the extras and work happily in SDI.

Final Cut has some strange lapses in it's development. The CG is still the same as it was in version 2! Why hasn't Apple at least improved it a little? LiveType wasn't the answer. Fading layered effects is still whacked out but at least I know how to solve that simply.

This has been done before but let's do it again. List the improvements you would like to see in the next stage of FCS.

Harrison Murchison
October 16th, 2008, 04:15 PM
Economics wise, how many people really need FireWire on their MacBooks? How many consumer cameras now only have USB2? How many external hard drives are now USB2 only? Who buys the majority of MacBooks? Professionals? Did Apple make the right choice? I don't have the statistics, do you? They came out with something called the MacBook Pro for a reason and it's not just to steal your money.


Pro LOL...what's so Pro about the MBP? I can find any number of PCs that have discrete GPU, Expresscard34 and a higher rez screen. Don't you think it's telling that Apple spent a majority of the keynote talking about the manufacturing process of the new laptops? These are "still" computers that need to be connected to a variety of other technologies. Regarding the Macbooks. USB only means they're just a toy. Powered Firewire gave them some respectability and the ability to utilize audio and video gear. Now the only thing a Macbook owner can really laud is the aluminum brick it was milled from. That's not really going to help you compute better if you're missing connectivity.

People are just acknowledging that Apple's laptops are not that well featured and with the omission of firewire on the Macbook it just doesn't represent a good value.

I'm officially turned off. I'll buy a PC laptop with Blu-ray and Firewire and use that before I spend a bunch of money on "all show no go" Apple notebooks.

Pete Cofrancesco
October 16th, 2008, 10:24 PM
I agree with some of the comments about mbp but it doesn't bother me in the least because I wouldn't want to edit video on a laptop. Looks like they've decided its more profitable to cater to the needs of i-consumers than prosumers for their laptops. That makes good business sense and after all Apple is in the business of making money. I can't envision consumers replacing discs in favor downloading video content. I'm sure Apple will come around to this realization sooner than later.

There has always been a misconception that Microsoft is more "evil" and controlling than Apple. If given a chance Apple would be just as bad as Microsoft. For that matter all technology related companies want to lock you into their software/hardware/format to eliminate competition and then milk you for as much as they can. Realize its a tool to achieve an end. The grass is always greener on the other side that's why most professionals rather stick to one editing system than hop back and forth.

John Woo
October 17th, 2008, 12:08 AM
Pro LOL...what's so Pro about the MBP? I can find any number of PCs that have discrete GPU, Expresscard34 and a higher rez screen.

The only reason I need a MBP is to run Final Cut studio. Other than that, I can easily find a windows notebook with specs equal or better that the over priced MBP

William Hohauser
October 17th, 2008, 04:32 PM
People are just acknowledging that Apple's laptops are not that well featured and with the omission of firewire on the Macbook it just doesn't represent a good value.

Value for who? You? Perhaps you are right, it's not a good value for you. Have fun with your new PC laptop. But there are still plenty of new white FireWire ported, matte screened MacBooks for sale for $999. Why don't you consider one of those before being "officially turned off".

The question here is, how many professionals are using MacBooks out of the entire sales count? Does Apple truly know the statistics? Since many people buy their MacBooks personally or in addition to a desktop, Apple may not be able to understand the effects this decision has on a significant section of their customers. Remember Macbooks were designed for students, casual home use and modest professional use (writing, web design, etc.) many features are never used. Try to find a low-end consumer camcorder with a microphone input these days! They used to all have that until the companies realized that almost nobody used it and they could save a few dollars per unit by removing it. The few that did use the input were forced to purchase a more expensive model!

Perhaps a concerted effort will convince Apple to release a version with FireWire again or at least a simple 4-pin port.

Harrison Murchison
October 17th, 2008, 05:07 PM
William

The is rife with complaint about the "missing" Firewire in the new Macbooks. There have been attempts to "spin" this via comments like "Consumers don't care about Firewire" for that "USB has won" or attempt to equate Firewire as some video only connection. I have a Canon DV camcorder that only supports Firewire and I have a USB/Firewire Western Digital drive that I wisely connected via Firewire (as you'll see why below). No one has contacted me for a survey to ascertain what connectivity I've chosen. If Firewire is a "dying" technology as some of these web pundits proclaim then why is there such an outcry?

My personal belief is this. I've followed Apple for over two decades and I know one thing about Steve Jobs. He has an aesthetic ideal for a product and then the engineers must make the product fit within these boundaries sometimes to the peril of the product (See Apple III). Jobs loves thin laptops which is why over the years we've seen overheating problems with the Macs or the dropping of some ports for space reasons.

The latest casualty to this obsession for thin computing is the FW port on the Macbook. EVERY Macbook sold before Oct 14 has had Firewire. It is no more of a Professional connection than USB. It has always been firmly planted in the middle. Suitable for low end applications and acceptable for high end as well.

When I say that the current Macbook does not have value I am certainly attempting to "shift my center" and look beyond my own needs. In order to compute "value" I have to look at the price of the computer and the featureset that it provides. At $1299 the Macbook Alu is already starting out fairly high. While the aluminum casing is gorgeous it's benefit to the consumer is fairly minute beyond aesthetics. I think the chipset is a nice upgrade with suitable graphics that should appeal to many people. I think that the optical drive is what we've had for years (no Blu-ray). Connectivity though has taken a decided downturn. By making the laptop USB 2.0 only without the possibility of expansion Apple has severely weakened the laptop and this affects not just me but all of us looking to get performance and longevity from our laptop.

Value is a subjective thing to us all but it is open for debate and that's what I'm here for. I ask any who read this. Do you want to spend $1300 of your hard earned money for a laptop computer that has defaulted to a connectivity standard that performs like this?

Here's the type of performance you're looking at with USB 2.0

Here's how eSATA, FW800 and USB 2.0 stack up (http://barefeats.com/note04.html)

http://barefeats.com/image08/not4_sr.gif

USB 2.0 Dominated

http://barefeats.com/image08/not4_sw.gif

USB 2.0 Dominated

http://barefeats.com/image08/not4_rr.gif

USB 2.0 Dominated

http://barefeats.com/image08/not4_rw.gif

USB 2.0 Dominated


Also keep in mind this is just storage read/write benchmarks and it doesn't show how well the connection does under heavy load. USB being CPU driven means that as your computer's load increases your storage connection will slow down further. In audio applications the difference is even more pronounced because USB cannot match the low latency of Firewire nor the isochronous realtime media support that audio interface/effects require.

Though even with the aforementioned foibles of USB 2.0 I'm earnestly open to differing opinions about why losing Firewire is no big deal. I must assume that performance is not important to a portion of the population in particular those who view the aesthetic quality of a computer to be paramount and are willing to pay a premium regardless of said performance or lack thereof.

HM

Mike Williams
October 17th, 2008, 08:43 PM
I do think not having BD is a big deal for me. Just go buy toast so I can have no menus? Just go out and pay a premium, then buy more software and hardware, cobble it together and be happy that I work on a mac. I see. Sir, may I have another? The Adobe guy at the last show I went to had a very compelling pitch. I wonder, why did I buy a 2008 mac? Because I use FCP which is not allowing my to do what much less expensive software is doing for PC users.

Nearing my upgrade cycle of my second tower I am going to look very seriously at a PC with BD and Premier. Why the hell not at this point? Then what is going to get me back to mac? Probably nothing.

Pete Cofrancesco
October 17th, 2008, 09:25 PM
I did some reading on the firewire issue and the most likely reason Apple did this was not to save money or to retire an old technology on its way out, but to push professionals into buying the more expensive mac book pro that has fw800. There are two ways to differentiate product lines from consumer to professional, one is add features to the pro line and the other is to remove features from the consumer line.

While its not very nice of apple taking the firewire away from the new mac book, you can use the move to your advantage by saving money and buying the older white mac book. Performance wise they're the same only real benefit of the new version is the new internal video card can handle games.

Gints Klimanis
October 31st, 2008, 02:12 PM
Lets hope some of the Apple people are lurking around sites like this one. Let's hope they will listen as well.
I wanted to address one point not mentioned. A dual BR disc contains 50 Gig of information. Try to download that! So what quality are we talking about through iTunes? not Hi-Def.

No firewire on Macbook, another complete fumble! I think we see Apple going main stream and the quality, innovation and performance level are going down. No wonder Apple stock suffered a major blow last month.

BluRay just sucks in practice. The visual quality of the movies are nearly indistinguishable from DVD resolution on my 52" Sony Bravia. This is probably due in part that movies aren't in HD-level focus most of the time, and possibly the transfer process. The rental selection just isn't growing fast enough as shops seem to have new releases for sale in a glass case while the same titles are available for rental a month later, at least at Blockbuster. Netflix is better in that regard.

I own an early Sony BluRay player, the DSP-S300, and I'm find BluRay movies that don't play (yesterday, Scorpion King II) at all, even with the latest firmware upgrades. The player needs a minute to startup, 20 seconds to begin reading a disk, and 20 seconds to eject a disk. "Play" on the remote or front panel doesn't commence playback. "Select" is the new play. Some disks need five minutes or more to startup, the time needed to load some fancy menu system. This just turns me off from watching these movies as much as I like the idea. Sony PS3 aside, the bulk of the BluRay players in existence don't handle BD-Rs to my knowledge.

The alternative to BluRay seems to be these "HD" movies channels which offer the blockiest video I've ever seen. Many of the "HD" movies are 4:3 DVDs, and at least half HD movies are so blocky that they're much worse than regular DVDs. I watch portions of them to keep up with the industry, as I don't need to watch "Purple Rain" (which I liked, Prince was awesome at that time) 50 times.

Given that Apple has pushed Firewire all of these years, it's surprising that this feature is missing. However, I don't think that BluRay or Firewire are on the minds of any stock investors, particularly in the last month.

Bill Davis
November 1st, 2008, 01:11 AM
I did some reading on the firewire issue and the most likely reason Apple did this was not to save money or to retire an old technology on its way out, but to push professionals into buying the more expensive mac book pro that has fw800. There are two ways to differentiate product lines from consumer to professional, one is add features to the pro line and the other is to remove features from the consumer line.

While its not very nice of apple taking the firewire away from the new mac book, you can use the move to your advantage by saving money and buying the older white mac book. Performance wise they're the same only real benefit of the new version is the new internal video card can handle games.

I was trying to stay out of this, but really...

If someone is actually a working professional - that is, someone making their living creating video for profit - the idea that they'd care about this level of cost difference is silly.

The extra to pay the difference between a MacBook and a PRO - for most working professionals - can likely be hidden in the craft services budget - or by hiring one less PA and dragging your own cases around for a couple of shoots.

Apple makes various levels of tools for various classes of users, just like everyone from guitar manufactuers to tennis racquet companies.

Get over the petty squabbles about the tools. If you can't afford the best yet, so what? What you CAN do with the basic level stuff is essentially more than ALL the capabilities I had available when I started working in multi-million dollar dedicated post houses years ago.

So put the gear gripes away and get to work!

While you're bemoaning what you didn't get in the latest upgrade, some snot-nosed kid who doesn't understand or even THINK ABOUT what the machine might NOT be able to do - is out there somewhere getting ready to steal your clients.

FWIW.

Pete Cofrancesco
November 1st, 2008, 01:59 PM
I was trying to stay out of this, but really...

If someone is actually a working professional - that is, someone making their living creating video for profit - the idea that they'd care about this level of cost difference is silly.

The extra to pay the difference between a MacBook and a PRO - for most working professionals - can likely be hidden in the craft services budget - or by hiring one less PA and dragging your own cases around for a couple of shoots.

Apple makes various levels of tools for various classes of users, just like everyone from guitar manufactuers to tennis racquet companies.

Get over the petty squabbles about the tools. If you can't afford the best yet, so what? What you CAN do with the basic level stuff is essentially more than ALL the capabilities I had available when I started working in multi-million dollar dedicated post houses years ago.

So put the gear gripes away and get to work!

While you're bemoaning what you didn't get in the latest upgrade, some snot-nosed kid who doesn't understand or even THINK ABOUT what the machine might NOT be able to do - is out there somewhere getting ready to steal your clients.

FWIW.
I agree if your a professional its a waste of time complaining about this sort of stuff. ante up the cash get what you need.

The one thing I feel is a legitimate complaint is how apple on more than one occasion recently has removed pre-existing features of their consumer products. New versions are supposed to be better not worse. For example, the newer version of iMovie they took away a power feature because they felt it was competing too much with FCP. As a result ppl started downgrading.

In regards to mb fw removal. Apple has touted that they're multimedia friendly as opposed to microsoft. Many choose mac because its easy download home movies from their camcorders and edit with iMovie. I just think its underhanded bad business to penalize your customer. If apple feels the need to differentiate product lines then add features to the pro line.

Boyd Ostroff
November 1st, 2008, 03:21 PM
BluRay just sucks in practice. The visual quality of the movies are nearly indistinguishable from DVD resolution on my 52" Sony Bravia.

Well my experience is certainly different. I have a new Sony BDP-S350 player connnected via HDMI to a Sony Bravia 46" KDL-46VW4100 LCD TV. I don't see anything like the startup times you mention - seems very comparable to a regular DVD player. Of course, I wish it were faster.

It varies from movie to movie, but I am quite impressed with most of the blu-ray disks I have. Will the standard survive the test of time? No idea. Does the added cost justify the quality difference? That's a personal decision which everyone needs to make for themselves.

I took photos of the screen with the new Blu-Ray version of 2001 vs. the anamorphic DVD special edition which came out about a year ago. These were taken with my little Canon SD600 and resized to 1920 pixels wide. Click on the attachments below and judge for yourself (you will need to click on the image a couple times to zoom in to 100%). Notice that you wouldn't even realize the arms of the spacesuit are ribbed if you only looked at the DVD version.

Boyd Ostroff
November 1st, 2008, 03:30 PM
Here's a closer screenshot which shows individual pixels for comparison. In addition to the higher resolution, there are fewer compression artifacts visible in the Blu-Ray version - look around the edges of the spacesuit for example.

Boyd Ostroff
November 1st, 2008, 03:41 PM
I just think its underhanded bad business to penalize your customer.

I guess the jury is still out on this, but Apple has been steadily gaining market share from the other companies:

Apple gaining North American notebook share | Latest Apple Computer News - CNET News (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10044204-37.html)

Cnet.com
September 17, 2008 10:00 AM PDT
Market research figures released Wednesday have Apple's share of the North American market for notebooks, up from 6.6 percent to 10.6 percent in the second quarter of this year, compared to last year. Every other major notebook maker's market share was either flat or down

And even though they're more expensive, they're holding their own in the market.

Netbooks' Popularity Threatens PC Makers' Profits - Barrons.com (http://online.barrons.com/article/SB122549289114289355.html?mod=9_0031_b_this_weeks_magazine_tech_week)

BARRON'S
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2008
Late last week, seven of the top 10 best-selling laptops on Amazon.com were priced under $600; the list included models from Acer, Asus, Toshiba and HP. (The other three laptops on the top 10 list are from Apple [AAPL], and are at the other end of the price curve.)

I don't use PC laptops, but the last time I looked only the higher end models included firewire ports. Has this changed?

Robert Rogoz
November 2nd, 2008, 11:43 AM
BluRay just sucks in practice. The visual quality of the movies are nearly indistinguishable from DVD resolution on my 52" Sony Bravia. This is probably due in part that movies aren't in HD-level focus most of the time, and possibly the transfer process. The rental selection just isn't growing fast enough as shops seem to have new releases for sale in a glass case while the same titles are available for rental a month later, at least at Blockbuster. Netflix is better in that regard.

I own an early Sony BluRay player, the DSP-S300, and I'm find BluRay movies that don't play (yesterday, Scorpion King II) at all, even with the latest firmware upgrades. The player needs a minute to startup, 20 seconds to begin reading a disk, and 20 seconds to eject a disk. "Play" on the remote or front panel doesn't commence playback. "Select" is the new play. Some disks need five minutes or more to startup, the time needed to load some fancy menu system. This just turns me off from watching these movies as much as I like the idea. Sony PS3 aside, the bulk of the BluRay players in existence don't handle BD-Rs to my knowledge.

The alternative to BluRay seems to be these "HD" movies channels which offer the blockiest video I've ever seen. Many of the "HD" movies are 4:3 DVDs, and at least half HD movies are so blocky that they're much worse than regular DVDs. I watch portions of them to keep up with the industry, as I don't need to watch "Purple Rain" (which I liked, Prince was awesome at that time) 50 times.

Given that Apple has pushed Firewire all of these years, it's surprising that this feature is missing. However, I don't think that BluRay or Firewire are on the minds of any stock investors, particularly in the last month.

I have Sony Bravia 40" 1080p with Sony Blue-Ray 350. Slow loading times on 300 was a problem, hence Sony fixed it on the 350 model. My loading times are no different from a DVD player. But the difference in picture quality is noticeable. I watched back to back same move on DVD and BR and you can't even compare picture quality. To me it's the same as the difference between VHS and DVD in the past.
From a professional stand point: why bother buying an HD camera if you are going to output it on DVD? Simply doesn't make any sense.

Mathieu Ghekiere
November 2nd, 2008, 12:52 PM
From a professional stand point: why bother buying an HD camera if you are going to output it on DVD? Simply doesn't make any sense.

I don't like the direction Apple is going with this, but I do have to react on this sentence. Answer on your question:

- being future-proof
- being able to reframe in post
- having a more detailed image overall, even after compressing for dvd.
- ...

Robert Rogoz
November 2nd, 2008, 05:04 PM
Mathieu, I am not saying Apple is bad. I think this company was putting out one of the best product on the market. Hence there are some people working on G4. I think for most of the part they had a stable OS (unlike Macroshaft), good hardware- hence it was a choice for people working in media industry. I still like my G5 over any PC. I also think, that Apple was supported by people like us- video, photo and graphic art professionals. However I don't like the direction Apple is taking now. Looks to me they jump the band wagon of mass sales forgetting the main supporters. Sorry- both my cameras are still connecting via fire wire. I am not about to drop 6K on new Sony or Panny- I have perfectly working camera, producing awesome images. I can see spending a few hundred bucks on a new BR drive, but that's where it ends. Until I know I can burn BR discs on my computer I am putting on hold any purchases from Apple. I think the technology is here and now and I think it's silly to pretend other wise. I don't want to be future proof, I want to see the results of my work using the technology in my living room now!

Bill Davis
November 2nd, 2008, 10:51 PM
SNIP I don't want to be future proof, I want to see the results of my work using the technology in my living room now![/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, none of us have a real vote on the pace of innovation.

I was just scanning a thread on another board where the subject was "show control" of multiple image presentations in museums.

One guy was asking another how he sync'd his projectors. He specified the industrial models of DVD players he'd used the previous spring for his museum display installations, then added something like...

"that's how we did it last year. This year, all our video content is going on compact flash cards to be delivered to screens digitally. No moving parts or spinning disc units is a huge relief when you have to serve video 24/7."

The point is that spinning physical discs, while inescapably reliable and very comfortable for most of us currently, it's NOT the way the industry is moving.

I KNOW that technologies like BluRay have a place right now. But for how long? Essentially, the idea that you need a piece of single use plastic on which to store and forward your content is getting kinda quaint, kinda fast.

Makes me uncomfortable. I remember all the times I've had to go to my 400 plus tape wall of DVCAM masters to pull old field footage for clients, and the number of "legacy" hard drives in my back room that at some point stopped working BEFORE I got the data totally backed up and my zen calmness quotient sinks pretty fast.

But what are you gonna do?

Progress - even when it's part joyful progress and part damnable capability loss - remains inevitable.

Pete Cofrancesco
November 3rd, 2008, 12:15 AM
I'm not sure if "disturbing trend" is the right word. The issue goes back to Apple's desire to control both the software and hardware. Blue Ray represents this conflict of interest, where Apple bet on HD DVD and now would rather push customers towards download delivery, rather than admit defeat and adopt BR.

Apple's decision isn't an impartial move to offer the right HD technology to its customer. They're using their hardware monopoly as means to block the BR and funnel customers into they're itunes model whether they like it or not. Consumers today want choice. Imagine if Microsoft went the Apple route to monopolize the hardware side (ie Windows would only run on computers made by Microsoft) and then wouldn't support BR so you'd have to use Microsoft's online service.

Andrew Kimery
November 3rd, 2008, 10:38 AM
I'm not sure if "disturbing trend" is the right word. The issue goes back to Apple's desire to control both the software and hardware. Blue Ray represents this conflict of interest, where Apple bet on HD DVD and now would rather push customers towards download delivery, rather than admit defeat and adopt BR.

Apple's decision isn't an impartial move to offer the right HD technology to its customer. They're using their hardware monopoly as means to block the BR and funnel customers into they're itunes model whether they like it or not. Consumers today want choice. Imagine if Microsoft went the Apple route to monopolize the hardware side (ie Windows would only run on computers made by Microsoft) and then wouldn't support BR so you'd have to use Microsoft's online service.
Apple was a member of both HiDef DVD organizations. Existing technology in Apple's computers allowed limited HD-DVD burning functionally and Apple tried to capitalize on that for largely PR reasons (Hey, look at us offering HiDef authoring before anyone else). Apple was a leader in desktop DVD authoring and this made many assume Apple would be a leader again once the technology was finalized. Of course as we all know Apple became even more involved in media distribution and now, as you said, BR is being seen as a competitor. Apple wants consumers to use the iTMS and AppleTV for their video purchases and rentals not BR and that consumer-centric decision unfortunately ripples into their professional user base that wants/needs BR.


-A

Richard Alvarez
November 3rd, 2008, 11:00 AM
I recall one of Apples major selling points was 'comes equipped with firewire' - poor PC's had to add a card if they wanted it.

Oops.


Part of the problems is perspective. Apple has always had a MAJOR share of graphics/media users in the professional world.

Trouble is, that's a small percentage of the overall market for computers. Apple still represents a small share of the total marketplace - yes, yes, 'growing' - but is that because of their changes?

So if you're a graphics/media user - 'Everyone' uses Apple. They're 'everywhere'. On the other hand, if you're a mom with three kids looking for desktop computers - go down to Walmart and buy a couple of PC clones and you're done. Stand in the software aisle and there's tons of apps for windows, a smaller aisle for Apple.

I was on the verge of getting a Macbook Pro - I'll have to decide in the next month - running AVID MC... Maybe I'll buy an 'older' version. I want a Matte screen, firewire 400 for my decks and cameras and the four drives I already have.

Boyd Ostroff
November 3rd, 2008, 11:47 AM
I was on the verge of getting a Macbook Pro - I'll have to decide in the next month - running AVID MC... Maybe I'll buy an 'older' version. I want a Matte screen, firewire 400 for my decks and cameras and the four drives I already have.

The MacBook Pro still has firewire so all you need is a 400 to 800 adaptor cable for your deck. I have a bunch of these lying around - they've been included for free with every firewire 800 drive I've bought so they can't be very expensive.

I don't really see how this changes the equation for "graphics/media users in the professional world". The "pro's" are going to buy the "pro" model.

Mathieu Ghekiere
November 3rd, 2008, 01:34 PM
Mathieu, I am not saying Apple is bad. I think this company was putting out one of the best product on the market. Hence there are some people working on G4. I think for most of the part they had a stable OS (unlike Macroshaft), good hardware- hence it was a choice for people working in media industry. I still like my G5 over any PC. I also think, that Apple was supported by people like us- video, photo and graphic art professionals. However I don't like the direction Apple is taking now. Looks to me they jump the band wagon of mass sales forgetting the main supporters. Sorry- both my cameras are still connecting via fire wire. I am not about to drop 6K on new Sony or Panny- I have perfectly working camera, producing awesome images. I can see spending a few hundred bucks on a new BR drive, but that's where it ends. Until I know I can burn BR discs on my computer I am putting on hold any purchases from Apple. I think the technology is here and now and I think it's silly to pretend other wise. I don't want to be future proof, I want to see the results of my work using the technology in my living room now!

Hi Robert,

look at my earlier posts in this thread. I'm the first one to say that I also don't like the direction Apple is going with this, I even said so literally I think a few posts back.
So, we completely agree on that.
Just wanted to respond on the situation about buying an HD-camera for SD purposes.

Richard Alvarez
November 3rd, 2008, 05:08 PM
Boyd,

I think quite a few 'prosumers' - those on the border between full-on professional and part time hobbyist - will NOT be moving up to the MacBook Pro. That seems to be the breaking point in the discussion - that the Macbooks are - for better or worse - forcing people UP a level of cost, or OUT into the PC market because of decreased functionality of the MacBooks.

Not clear to me if the single FIREWIRE 800 with a 400 adapter/converter will work with the DSR 11??? Anyone run one with the adapter on an 800 port? What about chaining drives, since you're using one bus? If you're running through the adapter, than you're limited to 400, if one element in the chain runs that way, correct?

Andrew Wheatley
November 3rd, 2008, 05:14 PM
A couple of things...

I don't think Apple was ever the leader in DVD authoring as one poster said. I believe that honour goes to Scenarist.

Also firewire 400 ports are used frequently. Pretty much all PCs have them from the cheap $500 laptops up.

I use my firewire regularly for OnLocation capturing live from my camera and for monitoring.

Those of you saying who would edit on a laptop anyway...well yes laptops are slower but being able to shoot on set to laptop and edit with the client and deliver that day without heading back to the office is very useful. As is the ability to edit on a desktop, transfer the project across take the laptop to the client and demo it and make any suggested changes as you are sitting there.

I think dropping firewire was a very poor move and not supporting BR was equally poor.

The Adobe CS4 line of products has set a very high standard that is cross platform and I hope many people switch to it. The power of dynamic linking and after effects alone should be enough to convince many users.

Pete Cofrancesco
November 3rd, 2008, 06:53 PM
I've seen it many times before where companies let they're success go to their head. I'm sure BR and FW were increase profit and new strategy decisions made by marketing and upper executives not developers. While I'm not naive to think either decision marks the beginning of the end for apple, it does indicate to me a change in priorities. I liked apple when they were focused on computers and software for design and video.

Mathieu Ghekiere
November 13th, 2008, 08:01 AM
Something I read today...

With the new 24" LED screens shipping, with a glossy display, no Firewire, and only the minidisplay connector... Apple is discontinuing the old matte 23" Apple Cinema Display.

William Hohauser
November 13th, 2008, 12:13 PM
Something I read today...

With the new 24" LED screens shipping, with a glossy display, no Firewire, and only the minidisplay connector... Apple is discontinuing the old matte 23" Apple Cinema Display.

The 24" is intended as a second monitor for laptops, Not sure what they are up to with the 23" display, it's still on their site but the store says "discontinued".