Just came from a pre-NAB meeting with Sony in Brazil.
They will show PDWF800 in Las Vegas. Same as 700, plus 24p, over and under cranking, all XDCAM formats (SD and HD) and some bells and wistles.

well, that's very good news.

just another april-joke?

No april joke. It was a Sony engineer with a Sony power point presentation.
There was a photo and a lot of specs.
And some nice other products.
We will see...

We have received confirmation from Sony as well. It is a real product that will show at NAB. No real details other than what Gerson posted.

Amusing since these are the same specs I predicted when the 700 first came out as a sister camera. Like I've always said, they always release XDCAM cameras in two's, but in the 700's case they had to be a bit more careful about treading on toes.

Gerson,

Any details about frame rates, codecs, data rates or price point?

Hi Brad,
All XDCAM HD 18, 25 and 35 and 50 422, IMX and DVCAM standards. All 1080 and 720, 50 and 60, and NTSC and PAL. Plus 24p. No price point. No 60p.
There will be some nice features, like a focus assistant (zoom in the image) and other I can´t remenber.
It´s a 700 full loaded with features, plus Cinealta logo and 24p.
It´s the end of F900.
They will show a 9000 HDCAM SR one piece camcorder too. But only a mockup. And you can imagine the price.

No 60p.
There will be some nice features, like a focus assistant (zoom in the image) and other I can´t remenber.
It´s a 700 full loaded with features, plus Cinealta logo and 24p.
It´s the end of F900.

Thanks Gerson,

that all sounds interesting but no 60P? I've already got focus assist on my viewfinder, the only reason I'd consider trading up is if the new camera offered overcranking. The 700 is a pretty nice camera as is, I guess 24p is important for the US market or if you're shooting for a film out. As far as the f900 goes I thought 700 ended it, Sony has just held back the 24p to soften the blow.

BTW you can already do some pretty good slomo in the 720 domain using the 60p available now in the 700, it's just that you've got to slow it down in post.

It will be interesting to see the details release date and pricepoint when all is revealed at NAB.

Thanks for the heads up!

A one word mention of the "PDW-F800" is noted in a Sony brochure.
See page 3 of brochure, right-hand column, bullet point *4.
Click on link below.
Sony Business Solutions & Systems - Featured (http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/NAB2009/pp_pdwhr1.shtml)

The PDW-F800 will also feature a filter wheel. 24P with over/under cranking. Not much different than the 700.

-gb-

Pretty much the specs I predicted when they released the 700. Like I always said, they always release these cameras in two's. This one has just taken a bit longer to materialise.

For those that wonder where the extra money goes, let me just remind you that the only difference between the PDW-510 and PDW-530 was an extra filter wheel and IMX50 recording and there was a £10k price difference.

Sounds like the same kind of product separation between the 700 and 800.

It´s the end of F900.
.

Still long GOP codec though, so maybe not?
Steve

Does Long GOP really have any bearing on the matter though? Either it is as good as HDCAM as a substitute or it isn't. There isn't really any half way. From what I've seen I don't think that HDCAM really offers anything above the long GOP 50mb/s codec. In fact it offers less, especially in terms of resolution.

So, okay it is long GOP, but it offers a much better workflow and better resolution capabilities. The real question is whether the 700's camera head is better. Probably not. The F900 is razor sharp, perhaps too much even when the detail is turned off!

From what I've seen I don't think that HDCAM really offers anything above the long GOP 50mb/s codec.

Where did you see that? I've never heard anyone say they thought XDCam was a better codec than HDCam.
Surely for fast moving and highly detailed subjects the I-frame codecs are superior?
Steve

Proofs in the pudding. Do you see a difference? HDCAM SR perhaps, but I'm ****ed if I can see a difference between common all garden HDCAM.

*Theory* says that the Long GOP codec should be inferior. Practice is another matter however.

Haven't looked that closely at them side by side, but I'm sure you're right, there's probably not much in it to the eye.
I know there's a lot of good things being said about AVC-I though, especially the 10 bit nature of it, that's why I'm going to hook the new P2 Portable to my 700 and see how it looks. Main difference apart from 10 bit vs 8 bit is the ease in getting 60P to conform to slomo in Cinema Tools, doing it from XDCam involves a ProRes or other I Frame transcode first which takes ages and degrades quality to some degree.
Steve

snip.....The real question is whether the 700's camera head is better. Probably not. The F900 is razor sharp, perhaps too much even when the detail is turned off!

Actually, the Power HAD-FX CCD on the PDW-700 is likely sharper than the F900. As a matter of fact, Sony recommends to tune the detail to -20 on the 700 to equal the detail level of the F900. Also, the 700 record a full HD raster (1920x1080) vs. (1440x1080) for HDCAM.

Thierry.

From what I have been gathering, the F800 is simply the 700 bundled with all the software. The F is to designate Cine-Alta status which is 23.98 as a factory standard. What is unclear is wether or not the offspeeds at 720 will be a software upgrade on the 700.

Everything else is exactly the same, a 700 is sheep's clothing.
Or shall I say, lets see next week.
Cheers guys

We just did a 13 camera shoot using several EX1/3s, F900Rs and a single PDW700. The 700 won in every category, except not doing 23.98.

I'm in New Zealand and we shoot 25p so 23.98 is not a big one so easy to spare the expense. I have done a few US jobs and they were happy to get it in 30P. I would consider upgrading it should it be the case.

I do love this camera, it actually has the digital zoom in this software round and works a treat. I have enabled it on my return button.. no kidding has completely changed how I shoot.

As a matter of fact, Sony recommends to tune the detail to -20 on the 700 to equal the detail level of the F900.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what to read into that, since the 700 I tried seemed to be overly sharpened out of the box to the point where some of the edge halos were objectionable.

To do a proper comparison we would need to know what the base level of both cameras really was.

I agree Simon however running the detail off which is about the equivalent of minus thirty I found had questionable results... especially when downconverting and going to air, even in HD. Having said that many ops here are finding that a better image so it is a bit of a preference.

Out of the box, agreed, its a bit harsh.

Here is the link to Sony's press release for the PDW-F800 camcorder and PDW-F1600 VTR.

Sony Electronics News and Information (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/content_create_edit/release/40325.html)

Thanks Ivan. Confirms variable frame rates for slomo, so I wonder if you'll be able to get an upgrade to the 700 to give it VFR too?
If not I'll be livid having bought the 700 and now having to go through hoops in post to get the 720/60P into slomo.
Anyone know if this'll be possible?
Steve

Possible I would say yes, but willing to that's another question.

Next week we probably know more.

Official Release!

Sony Electronics News and Information (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/content_create_edit/release/40325.html)

Assuming it has an LCD, I seriously hope that the LCD is at least equal to the EX1 in resolution. I know of no professional large format camera with a built-in LCD as good as the EX-1/EX-3. Although I own an EX-1, it strikes me as a bit odd that this is still the case. I've given up on Panasonic LCDs, but why does Sony not make this happen already since it's their component?

Some more information from Sonybiz.net on the PDW-F800 XDCAM HD422 camcorder.

Sony : PDW-F800 XDCAM HD422 Camcorder launched : Belgium (http://www.sony.be/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_BE&contentId=1237382124059&parentFlexibleHub=1166605171707)

If not I'll be livid having bought the 700 and now having to go through hoops in post to get the 720/60P into slomo.

A camcorder with the specs of the 800 has been on the cards for a while. I wouldn't be surprised though if the VFR thing was an additional board. The 800 just strikes me as the 700 but with all the optional extras as standard, and a price to match.

One interesting thing though was that they mentioned the ability to record proxy files to a USB device.

Assuming it has an LCD, I seriously hope that the LCD is at least equal to the EX1 in resolution.

Not a chance. It'll be exactly the same body as the 700, including the bloody awful LCD! Quite why they didn't put the one from the EX on the side of it I don't know. It drives me mad when a camcorder that will cost £30k or so comes with a screen that is inferior to a model that costs six times less! Although having said that I know the reason why. If they did put a better LCD on it then less people would bother upgrading to the 3" colour viewfinder option.

Thanks Ivan, here's a quote from it:“Many of the add-on options available for the PDW-700 come as standard with the PDW-F800 so it is a very versatile camcorder,” says Brooking, who also stresses that the 700 can itself be upgraded with many key F800 features via firmware or option board upgrades.
Sounds positive to me!
Steve

They did mention in the press release that it has an improved LCD - "It also has slow shutter, 2x focus magnification, clean switching between the “live and playback” function, and a large, easy-to-view 3.5 inch (viewable area, measured diagonally) color LCD screen."

and a large, easy-to-view 3.5 inch

Yep, same as the 700.

It's a shame that there isn't an aftermarket option for a better LCD. If it was available to buy at a reasonable price I would upgrade in an instant.

...and while I am dreaming... why has no-one figured out a way to make the EX-3 viewfinder detachable yet?

Where's my EX5?

Another deck? are you serious? im going to stick to digibeta or hdcam SR for mastering.

As someone who already uses SD XDCAM decks to master certain shows back to, i can see insert and assemble edit capabilities being very handy.. but i'd be pissed if i'd just bought an hd1500 and was using it to assemble.

Glad they've brought back the real filter wheel for CC. I've only had a play with the 700 a few times but found that button a very weird feature.

Another deck? are you serious? im going to stick to digibeta or hdcam SR for mastering.

As someone who already uses SD XDCAM decks to master certain shows back to, i can see insert and assemble edit capabilities being very handy.. but i'd be pissed if i'd just bought an hd1500 and was using it to assemble.

Glad they've brought back the real filter wheel for CC. I've only had a play with the 700 a few times but found that button a very weird feature.

Now that you can dial in your white balance in the menus I think the single wheel is fine just for NDs. You can then just assign different values to A, B and Preset in the white balance switch.
Steve

It's now listed for sale in the UK here for £25k. » Creative Video Sony Specialist Dealers > Sony PDW-F800 XDCAM HD422 CineAlta camcorder with variable frame rate capability (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=sony_pdw-f800)
Steve

Nearly 50% more than the 700!

Have I missed something or is the overcranking resolution never mentionned in the tech specs?

I guess all we could expect is overcranking up to 60p only in 720p mode, like all the other broadcast camcorders out there, but I would like to see that in words.

The F350 claimed at the time to have the ability to record overcranking in 1080p, but of course we've discovered that any frame rates above 30p lowered the resolution tu 540p.

Anyone have read something about S&Q mode?

It says it's got "slow and quick motion", which is what they call it on the EX cameras, which'll give upto 30fps in 1080 and 1-60fps in 720, you must asume this'll be the same on the 800 - and on the 700 IF it's upgradeable!!!!!!
Steve

Now that you can dial in your white balance in the menus I think the single wheel is fine just for NDs.

Well, not so fast there Steve. There advantages and disadvantages to both methods of CC. With the all electronic WB, there are some scenarios where the red or blue channel may be cranked up to compensate, which puts it dangerously close to blowing out that channel. I have seen this firsthand with my F350. Given the extra latitude of the 700 CCD block, it may be less of an issue on that camera.

Using optical filtering to get in the ballpark, the individual channel gains are more on par with one another at the expense of some sensitivity coming through the filter wheel.

-gb-

Here is a link to the PDW-F800 and PDW-F1600 brochure.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/NAB2009/docs/pdwf8001600broch.pdf

Interesting, that seems to indicate that the overcranking is done in 1080 mode much like the F355 (ie half vertical res) - or am I missing something here?
Steve

ps I'd like to nominate Ivan as Sony dealer of the year for keeping us all up-to-date!
Thanks man.
Steve

I should get my hands on one at NAB so I will find out exactly how the overcrank modes work.

Great Alister, and if you can find out whether the 700 can be upgraded to do it that'd be fantastic.
Steve

I pulled this out of a Sony document about the F800. Looks like the camera will be shooting slow motion in 1080p. Pretty cool stuff. Sorry for the formatting, but check it out:

• 23.98p Format Standard
– Available in the recording formats of MPEG HD422 and MPEG HD420 as a standard feature.
• Not available in SD formats.
• There is no 24.00p (23.98p)
• For 720, pull-down recording into 59.94p is only available as that of current PDW-700.
– 2-3 Pull-Down Output:
• There is no 2-3 pull-down output for 1080 although SD output is available by 2-3 pull-down process for monitoring purpose.
– This is the same functionality for 23.98p of the PDW-700 with the optional CBKZ-FC02 installed.

• Slow & Quick Function Standard
– Available in progressive formats of MPEG HD422 1080 mode.
• For the system frequencies of 23.98p, 25p, and 29.97p
– Not in Interlace, 720p, HD420, nor SD
– Over cranking speed: up to x2.0 (i.e.1/2 slow speed)
• Shooting speed can be set at every single frame between 1p to 48p/50p/60p.
– 23.98p: from 1p to 47.95p at a frame step　
– 25p: from 1p to 50p at a frame step
– 29.97p: from 1p to 59.94p at a frame step

That's what I dedeuced from the brochure, so it'll be half vertical res like the F355 you would assume.
So Andy, please please please find out for me whether or not the PDW700 will be able to be upgraded for variable frame rates! I used to have an F355 (briefly) and found that the slomo, even though half res, looked really really good, so would be happy with it on the 700. In 1 way it'd be better than having it in 720 mode, as you need to keep changing discs and powering down to change from 1080 to 720.
Steve

I doubt that it will be half res since the chips are natively capable of high framerates at 60fps. The only reason why they might reduce the resolution would be to lower the datarate to be able to write it to the disc fast enough.