I'd like to invite you all to our XDCAM F800 Events in our New York and Burbank offices. We are excited to be showing off this new camera, and I'd love to see some DVinfo members there. Come to learn about the camera, get your hands on it, and ask any questions you want. Oh and Sony is raffling off a digital still camera too. Here is the info for both locations, make sure to RSVP:

Abel Cine Tech is proud to present an Introduction to Sony F800 Camcorder. Join us for a first look at the latest professional XDCAM optical disc camera and learn how it takes the XDCAM format to the next level.

Topics for the day will include:

* Camera Features
* Camera Comparison: Sony F900 / 700 / F800
* Decks and Field Support
* Screening of F800 Footage
* XDCAM Workflow & Archival Techniques

Burbank - July 7th, 2009

Abel Cine Tech
801 South Main St
Burbank, CA 91508
(818) 972-9078

RSVP: Nora Larsen - rsvp@abelcine.com

11am – 1pm, followed by Q&A
A light lunch will be served
admission is free, but space is limited


New York - July 9, 2009

Abel Cine Tech
609 Greenwich St
New York, NY 10014
212-462-0100

RSVP: Claire Orpeza - rsvp@abelcine.com

10am – 12pm, followed by Q&A
A light lunch will be served.
admission is free, but space is limited

What about the topic of getting a trade-in on your 700 if you'd have waited had you know the 800 was on the horizon? RED does it with a full money-back trade-in against their new camera, why can't Sony? I still think it's a disgrace and it's put me right off Sony, looking into getting a Varicam instead.
Steve

Steve, when the PDW-700 was introduced at NAB in 2008 it was discussed as a news camera not a production camera.They also said it would not have 23.98. After feed back from the dealer networks Sony decided to have the option of 23.98. Sony listened to their
customers. Sony also said at NAB 2008 that the production camera would be introduced at a later date.

We have sold over 30 PDW-700 cameras and every customer that purchased these cameras were informed and they asked "when is the production camera going to be released". I understand your position! Sony did not hide the fact that a production camera
was to be released. All of the Sony dealers were advised. My advice is to talk to your local dealer and have them call Sony and support your position. XDCAM is important to Sony world wide and I am sure that your Local Dealer and Sony will work with you to resolve your issue.

Thanks Bill, I have mentioned it to my dealer, but will push it a bit more. It's actually the overcranking I need. I bought the 700 knowing that the 720/60P upgrade was on the way, but when it arrived it had a few issues. Firstly, you can't mix 720 and 1080 on same disc, secondly the quality doesn't look that hot, and thirdly the process to conform it to 25P for slomo effect is quite cumbersome due to the fact that it's long GOP rather than I Frame.
Steve

Firmware version 1.5 should address at least one of your issues. I know that isn't a big help.

What does that do then?
Steve

It means you will be able to mix 720 and 1080 on the same disc as long as the frame rate is the same in each mode.

What about the topic of getting a trade-in on your 700 if you'd have waited had you know the 800 was on the horizon?

Steve, as I have said before, I did point out when the 700 was released that XDCAM cameras were always released in two's and to expect and all singing all dancing version. And as Bill pointed out Sony never pretended otherwise that the 700 was for ENG operation. The feature set was as it was, and no extra VFR features were promised. Only rumour mongered.

It was a surprise to me when you said that the RSPB were interested in the 700, since Mark had told me that any camera they went for needed to have decent overcranking ability. I also mentioned then that there was likely to be a sister model to the 700 back then too.

It was a surprise to me when you said that the RSPB were interested in the 700, since Mark had told me that any camera they went for needed to have decent overcranking ability. I also mentioned then that there was likely to be a sister model to the 700 back then too.

It's because the 700 could do 720/60P which would be OK apart from the problems I outlined.
As for the cameras being released in twos, that would have been fine - if they'd been released together and we could choose then fine, but I'm not the only one who's miffed about this. I know that no VFR were promised, that's fine, but they should have told us that another model that would have VFR was on the cards and so to hang on if that was what we needed - many people wouldn't have as they don't need it.

Steve

but they should have told us that another model that would have VFR was on the cards and so to hang on if that was what we needed

No manufacturer is ever going to do that. If Apple did that nobody would ever buy any of their computers because they'd always be waiting for the next one.

However, Sony did do this in as much as the line that was taken was "if you want VFR the 700 isn't for you". Sony said right from the beginning that the 700 was not a cinematography camera. The 700 never had VFR yet you bought it anyway. Surely the best thing to do would have been to think "Well, the 700 doesn't have VFR so I'll wait and see what Panasonic do, or wait to see if Sony responds."

As I said, I'd commented for a long time that i expected something like the 800, and you should know by now that my 'guesses' about that type of thing are not often wild stabs in the dark even if nobody tells me that about that sort of thing directly. But hey ho...

Surely the best thing to do would have been to think "Well, the 700 doesn't have VFR so I'll wait and see what Panasonic do, or wait to see if Sony responds."

..

As to that, I did make the right decision as fortunately I've already had enough hires from the 700 to pay for any loss I'd make in trading it, but that's not the point.
Steve

but that's not the point.

The point is that there isn't any point. When the 700 was released it was at a time when the XDCAM development area was totally and utterly flat out. They also wanted to see the effect the 700 would have on the HDCAM line too.

Further the 800 isn't a 700 replacement, there is quite a price difference. And if your 700 is working for you and has made its money back, what's the issue here? If your 700 has made you a profit that you wouldn't have had if you didn't own it then you haven't really made a loss on it have you? If you knew that the 800 was coming then you would have had to have waited a year anyway, potentially not having the clients that you gained by having the 700 as early as you did.

Look, I could be annoyed at Apple for not telling me that there would be an 8 core Mac Pro months after I got a quad core. But I'm not. That's just the way the commercial world works I'm afraid. You are literally complaining that Sony didn't do what no other manufacturer of any goods anywhere would ever do either.

. And if your 700 is working for you and has made its money back, what's the issue here? If your 700 has made you a profit that you wouldn't have had if you didn't own it then you haven't really made a loss on it have you? .

Maybe some won't have been as lucky as me and made enough on it. Also I did have a camera already that I could have hired out before the 700, I was just ready to upgrade and the 700 seemed to be the way to go - full 1080 camera with 720 too for slomo, there was nothing else out there that had that. BUT if I'd known that the 800 was on the way I'd have waited for that. I had no knowledge of it at all about the 800 until the press release, and after that my dealer (Visual Impact) still had never heard of it and had had no word from Sony at all! So excuse me for being in the dark about it too!
Mark from the RSPB was waiting on me to do 720 tests on the 700, but Sony took so bloody long getting the firmware updates done that they jumped for an HPX2700 before I had the chance!
Steve

Maybe some won't have been as lucky as me and made enough on it.

In that case having an 800 wouldn't have changed things. I doubt they would have suddenly had loads of jobs coming in just because of the VFR feature.

that my dealer (Visual Impact) still had never heard of it and had had no word from Sony at all! So excuse me for being in the dark about it too!

Just the way it is. It was inevitable and easy to predict given how past XDCAM camcorders were released and feature sets that they offered between them. Also I long since learn't that when someone from Sony tells me "no way will that happen" that it usually will happen within 12 months! ;-)

The 700 was intended to be an ENG camera. The lack of Color Correction filters alone was evidence of that. The F800 is a different animal, yes they share many of the same features and you can upgrade your 700 to be very similar, but it is built to appeal to a production market. Panasonic did a similar this with the HPX2000 and HPX2700. They are just built for different purposes.

Our show is to get the word out that both of these cameras are great tools. In the US they have sold well to the news networks, but we need to get them in the hands of freelancers and other production companies. It seems like those of you in the UK have really embraced the 700. We hope to get the same response in the US with the F800. I can see how the release of this camera so soon after the 700 can upset some people, but the adoption of the XDCAM format by more companies can only increase the number of jobs you 700 owners will get.

Well this was from the PDW700 brochure - "The superb picture quality of the PDW-700 and PDW-HD1500 will increase the appeal of Professional Disc for
applications such as documentary, European TV drama and mainstream entertainment programmes that require a high quality look." That's not just ENG. And as others have pointed out, the talk from early on about a 24P upgrade being on the way further re-enforced the view that it was also capable of being a cinema camera. There was no talk from Sony (that I heard anyway) about "if you want a cinema XDCAM though, hang on we're working on one".
Steve

Well the 700 is very capable of doing all of those things, and with the 24p board and SD upgrade it will be pretty much all that the F800 is. Some people don't need the upgrades, and the price point of the 700 is perfect. If you need those functions and have the camera, then you upgrade. If you don't have the camera then get the F800 and you have all the features out of the box.

The lack of slow and quick functionality on the 700 does not make it less of a capable camera.

The lack of slow and quick functionality on the 700 does not make it less of a capable camera.

That's exactly what it makes it! That's the only bit that I want, if I was able to upgrade, even at the cost of a couple of thousand pounds for a new board then I would.
Steve

You might want to look into in a Convergent Design Nano Flash. Direct HD SDI recording. Besides over and under you can record 100Mb LGOP, and I have heard 140 Mb LGOP coming soon with a firmware update. Also I frame recording if you wish. As a 700 and EX 1/3 owner this little box will raise the bar for both cameras.

Am doing just that, check my many posts in the Convergent forum over the last few days! Unlike Sony they seem to be a company you can deal with! For example when releasing the Flash XDR they told everyone that the Nano was on the way and that it might be better for them to wait if they wanted a smaller unit.
Steve

All hail the guru of broadcast cameras, we're so lucky to have your assistance on this lowly forum.

Steve, the conversations about the 700's abilities and lack of VFR have been on the radar both here and on other forums since before the camcorder was fully released for public sale. Be sarcastic if you like, but the fact remains that it was your choice to get the 700 despite the lack of a major feature that you required, and despite the fact that it was highly likely that Sony would release a sister model. I'm sorry, but if VFR was really that important to you, you shouldn't have bought a 700. That's not Sony's fault, it's yours and your alone.

Unlike Sony they seem to be a company you can deal with.

So don't buy Sony. I am quite sure that Panasonic would have told you that the 2700 was on the way just after the 2100 was released... or perhaps not as the case turned out to be. Did Panasonic let new 3000 owners know that the 3700 would be released in a year or so when they released it? No, they didn't.

From Sony's stand point why should they tell you? From their point of view, if you want VFR you wouldn't logically be looking at a 700 in the first place. You just seem to be blaming Sony for your own impatience to get a new camera despite it not doing what you wanted it to do. Nobody forced you to make the decision to get it regardless and to use the Cinematools method to get 60fps slow mo from a 720p recording.

I'm sorry that you don't like that idea, Steve. But being sarcastic towards me isn't going to change it.

you shouldn't have bought a 700.

Impossible for you to say as you don't know my full situation. I don't need any advice on how to run my business thanks.
The 700 was the best camera for my purposes at the time for sure, but I would have waited if I'd known that the 800 was on the way so quick, and the fact that probably the biggest Sony dealer in the country knew nothing about the 800 until after its press release says lots to me.
Steve

I don't need any advice on how to run my business thanks.

I'm not advising you on your business. All I'm going on is what you have said about your need for VFR. If the 700 has worked for you otherwise then I really am straining to see what the real issue is here. Either the 700 worked for you, or it hasn't. Either it had the specs you wanted, or it didn't.

The simple fact is that nobody in their right mind would think that it would be logical for Sony to say "No, wait, don't get that 700 because in a years time you'll be able to get a better featured version of the camera in totally different price bracket for nearly 13k more"!

The situation here is no different at all from Panasonic and the 3000 and the 3700. Are all the 3000 owners complaining?

If I'd have known Apple was updating the Mac Pro I would have waited. If I'd have known that Ford were updating the Mondeo I would have waited. If I'd have known Pentax were updating the K10D to the K20 I would have waited.

I'm done with this.

It has worked for me, but the cameras I already had were working for me too and I'd have hung on if I knew the 800 was on the way.
I just don't like this attitude of "serves you right for making a stupid decision" - for all you know I might have made £20k with it already, but that still wouldn't change my opinion about what Sony has done. I'm not the only one who has this opinion about this issue.
I'm done too.
Steve

On that positive note! I hope you all can travel to NYC or LA to be at our event.

andy-

i was at the nyc f800 event this morning and as always, u abel folks did a top notch presentation.

no question, this is a very sweet camera. coming from the ex platform, i would say, "drool-worthy".

though the folks at sony financing suggest otherwise, this rig might be out of my price league. but that doesn't mean i don't want it!

again, thanks andy for keeping us nyc folks informed and ready for more.

be well

rob
smalltalk productions

It was a great presentation. Thanks Andy. Nice camera and optical filters are great. My only critique is the quality of the LCD. Cine-Alta group's LCD on the EX line is proof of what they are capable of, so this should be built in to the pro line.

Yeah, the LCD is absolutely pathetic. A joke.

(700 and EX3 owner)

Andy, do you know of any 35mm lens adaptor that does not have an optical flip module that would be perfect to use with the PDW-F800? (The PDW-800 already has a built-in digital image inverter).

Thanks.

The only one I know of is the Brevis or Letus with an optical relay and no flip module. The Pro35 has one built in though. The Canon anamorphic adapter could also be used, but it's not a 35mm adapter.

Andy,

As far as I can see on Letus's web site, all models appear to include optical flip image functionallity (Prism technology with proprietary Image Orientation Correction technology (IOC). This adapter "flips" the image upright). I was very interested by the Brevis because it comes has a modular three piece system, flip image, vibrating glass and B4 adaptor but after checking with Cinevate, they say that you have to use the flip module and cannot mount 35mm lenses directly to the Brevis. I think that really opens a door for the development of an ultra compact, nifty 35mm adaptor for the new generation of 2/3" cameras with built-in digital image flip feature.

Thierry.

Andy,

I think that really opens a door for the development of an ultra compact, nifty 35mm adaptor for the new generation of 2/3" cameras with built-in digital image flip feature.

Thierry.

Check the Cinemek G35. I'm not clear on its compatibility with 2/3" but no flip on this.

So what's a full-kitted F800 package run? Including viewfinders, base plates, batteries and chargers?

Check the Cinemek G35. I'm not clear on its compatibility with 2/3" but no flip on this.

That's the kind of simple adaptor I'd love to use on the F800. Unfortunetly, it does not appear that the Cinemek G35 has a B4-Mount option to bypass the camera lens. I hope they are working on such a thing.

Thierry.