Hi all. Looked on the Apple site, and searched around but can't find a definitive answer on whether I can do MPG2 output with FCP Express. I'd assume I can, but can I?

Aaron

I'm not so sure about that, unless there's a third party solution. I had some MPEG 2 files which I needed to convert, and I needed to buy a separate CODEC for Quicktime 6 Pro to do this:

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/mpeg2playback/

It's only $20, but it only supports playback of MPEG 2 files (and transcoding with QT Pro). You can't export the audio track from an MPEG 2 file evidently (wouldn't let me do it, which agrees with their FAQ).

Aaron,

No. You have to export a Quicktime movie to a program like iDVD or Compressor (with FC Pro) to create a Mpeg2 file.

Wow, that's really stupid.

With iDVD then, can I output a simple MPG2 (with audio and video streams), or can I only generate finished VOB files, VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS directies etc. i.e A finished DVD format?

The reason for these questions is this - maybe this will clarify.

We do technical presentations here at work among our organisation, where sites from around the world present technology to each other. Now seeing as I'm "The video enthusiast" here I was asked if I'd film and edit them for our site (We don't want to teleconference cause it's slow and ugly). I said sure and did the last one with Vegas trial (I use Vegas at home). Now I have a Mac Mini, and we have a Mac's lying around at work and I was thinking, Hmm, if It can be budgetted to get some software (which really, we need anyway) I'll get some Mac software and I can get some skills with FC. Of course we can't fork out $$ for FCPro, but Express maybe. That all said, we need to deliver in a simple MPG2 file format.

Cheers
Aaron

Aaron,

It's not stupid, just a matter of practicality. There isn't a demand for stand alone MPEG2 encoders in the consumer markets. Tools for consumers such as iDVD are aimed at people who niether know nor care what an MPEG2 is. They just want a DVD to share with friends and family documenting their vacation or JRs 1st steps.

iDVD will not output an MPEG2 file. It will create the VIDEO_TS folder and files and/or creat a disk image for burning to DVD later. It's amazing, though, how iDVD has worked its way into many professional workflows.

I'm not sure why you need MPEG2 files. They are primarily used for DVD creation, not general playback over a PC or Mac. As a matter of fact, a Mac won't even playback MPEG2 unless you have FCP installed which by default installs the QuickTime MPEG2 playback component, or you can buy the QuickTime MPEG2 playback component as a stand alone QT plugin for $20.

You could use BitVice Lite (http://www.innobits.se/) for $149US or the Pro version for $297 if you wanted a stand alone program but like Dave said, there isn't much call for MPEG-2 as a stand alone format. Most people use Sorenson Video or MPEG-4 or even MPEG-1.
If you want a compression program you are probably going to have to buy one because Final Cut (both Pro and Express) are primarily "editing" programs.

Dave, I wanted mpg2 for a good quality at good filesize with an easily (Freely) available codec on the PC that others can install to view the files. We need smaller file sizes for transfer over FTP to other sites. It seemed to me that quality of MPG2 was great with a small file size (presentations are normally about 10 mins) and that it was easy for people to install an MPG2 codec on their Windows machines and view them.

If there is another, equally easy solution I'd love to know. I guess I'm pampered on the PC, cause with Vegas I can export to almost any video format whatsoever.

Also, I wouldn't have considered FCE as a Consumer version, iMovie for sure so it does seem stupid and strange to me.

Rhett, are you saying Final Cut Pro as well doesn't export to MPG2?!?

Boyd, thanks for that. I think that might be the best low cost solution (Short of staying with Vegas on a PC). Render to XXX format (What is the render format of FCE anyway?!?) and transcode with QTPro and the MPG2 plugin.


Cheers for all the answers
Aaron

Actually FCP doesn't do the encoding. It is Compressor. Which is a fancy QuickTime Pro front end. Before Compressor, it was QuickTime Pro that did the encoding. Compressor adds other features and some ease of use and power. But Compressor COMES with FCP and DVDSP, currently it's not for sale as a standalone app. It does a nice job as well.

QuickTime has some nice choices for playback but for encoding, MPEG-2 isn't one of them and to play MPEG-2 you have to buy the extra plugin. Check it out here (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/qt/specifications.html)

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen : transcode with QTPro and the MPG2 plugin. -->>>

That plugin only plays MPEG 2; it doesn't write MPEG 2 files. It will let you open an MPEG 2 file and export it in another format however.

Aaron,

I too am pampered.. but because I'm using a Mac :) I can export to most any format necessary with FCP.

By the way, the QuickTime MPEG2 playback component is for play back only. You can export the MPEG2 streams as other formats. However, QuickTime Pro does alow you to export to many different formats, MPEG4 being one of them and from what you described, that would be the perfect file type. MPEG2 is definitely not the best choice for sharing and transfering files the way you are wanting.

Final Cut Pro does encode MPEG2 if you have Compressor installed which comes with it. FCP and I gues some versions of Vegas are pro apps so they will have this ability.

Rhett's suggestion of using BitVice is an excellent one, that's what I use.

Wow....OK, so for what I'm doing you suggest I get FCExpress + QuicktimePro which will then allow me to encode output from FCE into MPG4? I know you guys are Macheads but is there an MPG4 codec freely available for the PC? (windows media player is what they all use)

BTW, what is the native output from FCE then, or is this a one step process. e.g when it comes time to render out a project, it is done with the FCE interface but goes through Quicktime so I get whatever options Quicktime offers me?


Cheers again all
Aaron

FCE is strictly DV...well now it does HD as well so I guess it uses the AIC for HD (Apple Intermediate Codec).

Prior to moving from a G3 Mac to a G4 Mac, my work flow was FCE, export a DV master, encode to MPG2 with BitVice, author DVDs in CaptyDVD.

Now it's FCP HD, export DV master, encode to MPG2 with BitVice, author DVDs in DVD Studio Pro 3.

My suggestion is to get FCE HD which now comes bundled with LiveType, a great annimated title generator, and Soundtrack, a great looped based music tool. It might even come with a key to unlock QT and make it the Pro version. That's how it's done with FCP HD. If not then you'll have to get one from Apple. Get BitVice for MPEG2 encoding if you need it, but I don't really think you need it. You can use QT Pro to export MPEG4 files.

For DVD authoring just use iDVD which will use your DV files but not MPEG2 since it ecodes to MPEG2 on its own.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Toast Titanium give you MPEG 2 encoding as well? Just drop your DV file onto it and it creates a folder where it stores the converted MPEG 2 file... right? I'm not at my Mac to check that out... but BitVice might be the better way to go.

Mark,

Toast will make a VIDEO_TS folder and burn a DVD but not save MPEG2 files to the hard drive. It will also burn a disc image as well.

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen : Wow....OK, so for what I'm doing you suggest I get FCExpress + QuicktimePro which will then allow me to encode output from FCE into MPG4? I know you guys are Macheads but is there an MPG4 codec freely available for the PC? (windows media player is what they all use)-->>>

For Windows encoding you might try looking at this one (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/win/16330
). I don't know much about it but It looks free. I have DivX Doctor and few other tools on both my Macs and PC's but I rarely use them because Compressor seems to do a decent job.
Here is the developers site for 3ivx (http://www.3ivx.com/)

Also if you are looking for an industrial strength encoder for Windows Cleaner XL (http://www4.discreet.com/cleanerxl/) is a very nice choice. It has a ton of options and produces some very fine images, it's not free though.

<<<-- BTW, what is the native output from FCE then, or is this a one step process. e.g when it comes time to render out a project, it is done with the FCE interface but goes through Quicktime so I get whatever options Quicktime offers me? Aaron -->>>

This is pretty true as far as I can tell from your explanation. I don't use FCE so I am not certain but that is how it usually works. (QuickTime is doing the encoding but you don't see it because Final Cut is based on QuickTime) If you have QuickTime or Quicktime Pro rather, you would be able to encode to any one of the formats available to it. MPEG-2 though is set up such that the program that encodes it pays a royalty to the MPEG-2 consortium. I'm not sure how it works or who gets the money exactly but the reason there aren't many, if ANY, free MPEG-2 encoders is because someone has to pay the royalties for it's use.
The same thing happens with MPEG-4 but but I think it has some different variables concerning the money side of it since there are quite a few different variations of the MPEG-4 codecs.

"Toast will make a VIDEO_TS folder and burn a DVD but not save MPEG2 files to the hard drive. It will also burn a disc image as well."
Toast uses a scratch space as it converts your media to set up the VIDEO_TS folder. I don't have access to my Mac, but I could have sworn that the temporary files that it saved were MPEG2. By default the folder is the user's home folder/documents/Roxio Converted Items.... or something like that. At least when I was saving some MPEG 1 files to a Video DVD, I thought it did this... I will check tonight... but at any rate, BitVice might be the better way to go.

Mark,

You're correct about the converted items folder but that seems to be only for when you use Toast to capture footage from a camera. I've done that in the past. I just did a quick test and made a 30 sec dvd but the only thing it saved in that folder was an aif file for the audio. The video was converted and saved directly to the VIDEO_TS folder.

Yeah Dave, when I got home I tested it out too... Damn, I thought it said MPEG2! Sorry for the misinformation everyone. :-)

Let's start from the end result, Aron. You need an MPEG-2 Program Stream (PS), a file with audio and video multiplexed together. Look and listen to this video and you'll see/hear what I mean.
http://www.bobhudson.com/BitViceHelper.html
There is a download link to the latest version on the same page.

This free app can make a DVD disk image to burn with Toast, but that is not what you want for a video server system, you just need it to create an ordinary muxed MPEG-2 PS. It will also encode the sound to MPEG Layer II audio for you before muxing it with the video. This is a whole lot and it is free.

Now you need the third piece in the puzzle, i.e., the MPEG-2 encoded video (.m2v) file. This is where you need the most bang for the buck. Many have already suggested BitVice in this thread and so do I (shameless plug).

Now let's start from the other end. Assuming you are on a tight budget and that you already have an edited QT movie of some sort, with uncompressed audio in it. Here is what I suggest you to try, for free, before you spend any more money.

Dowload a BitVice demo https://www.innobits.se/download.php.
Drop the QT movie onto BitVice. When it asks if you want the audio extracted, say yes. When BitVice is finished encoding the video you will have one .aif file and one .m2v file as well.

Start BitVice_Helper and give it both files. And... well you already saw the movie above didn't you;-)

In the unlikely event that your MPEG-2 video server or playout system needs a Transport Stream (TS) instead of a PS, go here for a TS mux instead of BitVice_Helper.
http://www.alfanet.it/squared5/mpegstreamclip.html

Thanks Roger. So what codec is used in the normal Quicktime output then? I would assume if people had to use a third party encoder, in a separate step they'd have to do somethin g stupid like uncompress output first, making the resulting file stupidly huge.

I understand I have no other way of doing it, but I am totally shocked at the workflow involved here. My $500 version of Vegas will encode straight from the timeline, but I need a $1000 version of FCP to do similar, or FCE + another tool.

I guess this means I'll stick with Vegas at hom for a while to come ;)

Thanks again for the help.
Aaron

Aron, The QT codec used is the same as you already used to store your movie in. Wichever codec you use, it will be able to decompress (as suggested by the "dec" part of "codec") the pictures into RAM, very much like it does when you play the movie onto a computer computer screen. It does not create a new uncompressed file on disk for that, it is all expanded in RAM.

My advice was limited to solving your problem as I understood it, which was how to convert a QT movie into a high quality muxed MPEG-2 stream that wouldn't be limited to the DVD specification or even require a DVD to watch. *

As for the best video editing tool for your budget, you'd rather follow others' suggestions. There are at least FCP, FCE, iMove and Don't forget QT Player Pro from apple, plus all the non-Apple editors to choose from. If you don't mind getting your hands a bit dirty, you could probably do most of what you need with QT Player Pro, which you may want to have anyway ($20+20 I think, with the MPEG-2 playout component). I wonder, is there is any good tutorial on how to make use of all its more or less hidden capabilities?
BitVice Lite will cost you $149.

*
DVD specialists may often wonder why you would ever want to use MPEG-2 for anything else but DVD. However, DVD is only one special, and rather constricted, application of the MPEG-2 specifications. Many seem to forget, unless they are ignorant about it, that MPEG-2 was designed for digital television. Then DVD adapted specific parts of it.
However, the recently increasing popularity of the DVD format have brought recognition of MPEG-2, as a new buzz-word, to a much broader public, far beyond the traditional TV professionals. In the television industry Mpeg-2 file servers have been used professionally for 9 years now. Digital TV broacasts via cable, satellite and terrestrial use MPEG-2.

$299 for FCE and $149 for BitVice is still less than $500 for Vegas.

If you have a Mac with a SuperDrive in it you would get iMovie and iDVD for FREE and that is even cheaper still. (though iMovie isn't really in the same class)

Actually Rhett, any new Mac regardless of which optical drive, includes the entire iLife suite.

I know you understand this, but many PC users still think Macs are more expensive than PCs.

I just mentioned it because Aaron said it would be more expensive to do what he wants on his new computer ($500 Vegas .vs $1000 FCP) when in reality he could do it with the mentioned tools (BitVice and FCE) for $50 less AND get LiveType and SoundTrack included, which, up until recently would have cost an extra $500! That's a good value!

Granted the workflow may not be ideal in it's current configuration but I have confidence it will improve. Besides, it's not even a Mac .vs PC thing because if someone purchases a new Windoze PC they STILL have to buy a new license for the software, so you're out another $500 either way you look at it. (unless of course you uninstall the original copy)

Want a real bargain? Check out the Production Suite (http://www.apple.com/productionsuite/) for $1299.00 It's got everything you need.

No way was it meant to be a Mac vs PC - I don't think I implied it at all either ;). Just been shocked by all this. I appreciate all the advice and I think I will have a good solution with FCE and QT Pro (MPG4) for now.


Cheers
Aaron

I can appreciate where you're coming from Aaron, it can be frustrating to have a workflow and then upon changing platforms you have to redesign/rethink everything. I didn't take your comments as any kind of platform issue, I was just trying to make it a little clearer to others who may be reading that there could be another option. I do wish there was a singular program that would handle it a little better, well I guess there is, but it's $1000 (FCP) and even at that I still look to other programs for work on occasion.
It's good that you're asking questions and being open to options, hang in there and it will all start making sense soon enough. I hope you find a good solution, (I'd seriously consider BitVice for your MPEG-2 and QTPro is great for MPEG-4) but then again there's always other ways to skin a cat.

Best of luck!